08 - Renee Relf - M.Arch + CPHC - Clean
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James: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Marketing Passivhaus, the podcast where we hear from architects, designers, builders, suppliers, owners, and other experts in the Passivhaus and high performance building space. We'll be talking about what's working and what's needed when it comes to marketing buildings that meet or aspire to the Passivhaus standard.

James: I'm your host, James Turner, and today I'm joined by Renee Relf, freshly graduated with her Master's in architecture. And a certified Passivhaus consultant with a Living future accreditation. Renee, welcome to the show.

Renee: Thank you.

James: Um, so before we get into it, and for people who are just meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you started on your Passivhaus journey?

Renee: Yeah, so, um. I didn't know much about Passivhaus until I came to University of Oregon. Before that I went to Morgan State University and got my Bachelor's of Science in Architecture and environmental design. And then because of my interest in sustainable [00:01:00] design and architecture, went to University of Oregon.

Renee: And there we had Alison Kwok, who is a specialist in sustainable building practices. And so she has a class there that was, uh, Passivhaus and really hard to get into. And luckily I got a spot in there. Um. And that's kind of how I got into Passivhaus for the first time.

James: Nice. So one of the things that struck me is that you got your CPHC before graduating.

James: Um, so was that because of of her?

Renee: Yeah. So, um, the class that we have there, we. Are able to take the Passivhaus course during school. And so she was our professor there and because she's leading this class there, there, there are about 15 of us or maybe a little bit less that were able to get into the class.

Renee: And then throughout the course we do all of the modules and then. [00:02:00] During class, we talk more in depth about Passivhaus and we have speakers that come in and talk about their experience with Passivhaus and sometimes they're also certified Passivhaus consultants and sometimes they're contractors or some of the builders.

Renee: And so yeah, because she has the class there and is teaching it that was how we were able to get that opportunity. But I know that it's not common. There are only a few other universities in the United States that have this program. Nice.

James: Um, and have you found when you talk to other people that they are jealous of it or have heard of it or what?

Renee: Yeah, I mean, definitely classmates that I had before. I mean, this is one of the classes that everybody wanted to get into, right? Um, because a lot of people go to University of Oregon because of their specialization in mass timber and, combining that with Passivhaus, I think would be fantastic. And so a lot of people have the same interest when, when they go here.

Renee: And, um, I think when I, when I talked [00:03:00] to other students that I went to school with before, they're always like, oh my gosh, that, like, that's so cool that you're able to do that. And having that opportunity, I think was really great also because everyone in the class was super passionate about it too. It wasn't just something that.

Renee: You just take as an elective. And it was one of the only electives that I actually, it was like the only elective that I took because my, I was on a two year track, so it was a very, um, stacked schedule. And so, yeah, I really only had space for one 'cause I also studied abroad. So yeah, definitely it is well recognized.

Renee: Like people that I spoke to outside of the architecture industry in Eugene, for example, they kind of knew what it was or had heard of it before.

James: Interesting, interesting.

Renee: And then they would ask me to dive deeper into like, oh, so can you make my house Passivhaus? And so I would explain, you know, some of the processes that would be possible if they were actually interested.

Renee: And usually these would be some of my friends outside of school or or other people that I know in the community.

James: Right. [00:04:00] That's very cool. It feels like that probably wouldn't have been true 10 years ago.

Renee: No.

James: Um, did you find, so you did a, an internship, right? Mm-hmm. And did you find, did you use your Passivhaus skills there at all or.

Renee: So my internship was last summer and I, I just got the CPHC this year. But I do have another internship coming up this fall and they were very interested in the fact that I was getting my CPHC 'cause I hadn't gotten it just yet. But because this company does a lot of blower door testing and things like that, that's something that we learn in, in Passivhaus or we learn about it and then we had somebody come and demonstrate it.

Renee: So we could actually get a hands-on experience on how to do it, which is not something you get in every Passivhaus course. Right. 'Cause the online course, you don't get to have that type of experience. So it was like very enriching to have both in person conversations about it. Mm-hmm. Versus people who are traditionally doing it only have the online community, [00:05:00] so, yeah, the company that I'll be with this fall is super excited because I have the CPHC and we'll have some, some experience with that.

James: That's very interesting. It's a, a good skill to have going forward, I think, or like a good, good credentials.

Renee: Yeah. I'm excited to be able to apply it and like, not just the building science world, but also throughout the architectural design process.

Renee: Because I feel like, I mean, especially in the Northwest, people are moving more towards sustainability and incorporating these things into their building strategies and just like planning and things like that. So I think it'll be good to be able to apply it at different scales if I decide to go into a different direction.

Renee: I mean, right now I, I'm, I want to do commercial design but the internship is building science. So again, those are two different. Things, but Right. But it's gonna be really good to have that experience for when I am a licensed [00:06:00] architect in the future.

James: Nice. So the name of this podcast is Marketing Passivhaus, and my main interest is the sort of intersection between people who know about it and people who don't and how we sort of bridge that gap.

James: So, do you have any, I don't know, anecdotes or stories of times when you'd had conversations with people? And explained what Passivhaus was.

Renee: Yeah. It happens pretty often 'cause right now I'm, I'm in Maryland for the time being and whenever people ask me what I do and I tell them about, um, Passivhaus, I was actually the other day talking to somebody.

Renee: At a restaurant about Passivhaus and 'cause it was, he was an architect and so he was asking me about my degree and everything and, and I was like, oh, I just did my certified Passivhaus. A consultant and he was super excited. He was like, wow, that's like so uncommon over here because it's not as much of a focus here at the [00:07:00] moment, but some of the larger firms are definitely incorporating per Passivhaus.

Renee: So it was really cool to talk to him because he knew a little bit about it.

Renee: Mm. And

Renee: so explaining kind of how it's that high performance, less energy design, small building footprint and being able to talk to somebody that knew about it, not. From like a Oregon part of the world because the climate zones are all different.

Renee: So that was really interesting. And then another time I was, I was speaking to somebody in Eugene who was experiencing problems with their house, and they said that, you know, their energy bill is really high. And I was like, oh, have you ever looked in the pass pals? And they're like, oh. No. And so I explained, I was like, you know, you could do a retrofit and kind of improve your insulation and try to cover all, all the holes in, in the wall and try to make it as airtight as possible.

Renee: And, and that should help a lot with the energy bill. And he was like, oh, I [00:08:00] definitely need to look into that, because I had no idea that existed.

James: Hmm, that's interesting. As the, uh, the direct sort of reaction to. Too high energy bill. We talk a lot about how you have to sell the emotional, like, so how we make decisions emotionally so that you, you, you tend up tending to do better.

James: Talking about like how it feels in the house and that sort of thing, but. There's that very practical side as well, right?

Renee: Yeah. Unfortunately, I think especially with sustainability, you have to really market it as affordable and affordable in the long run. Because a lot of the time you're investing in better materials or you're investing in just overall better practices, and that might lead to upfront higher costs, but.

Renee: In the long run, like the energy bill, like if you look at energy bills of Passivhauss [00:09:00] versus traditional homes, it's actually insane. Like my professor Allison, she had designed her own Passivhaus in Eugene and she shared with us her pa, her electric bill information and we were all like, this is actually unreal because it's real time data.

Renee: And people, when they see that. I think if you're presenting that to a client or somebody that you're working for, they're gonna be like, wow, I spend this much every month. You know?

Renee: Right,

Renee: right. So being able to bring that into it, unfortunately, like of course the environmental aspect of it is fantastic, but a lot of the time, not everybody is on that same page.

Renee: Yeah.

Renee: So being able to bring in like logistics, like this is why you should do it, because it's gonna be better for you and not just. The world and the environment. Yeah. I think is the best part of it. And bridging that gap is fun for me because I like both sides. I love the numbers and the data, but I also went into architecture for sustainability [00:10:00] and, and helping with climate change and being able to bring Passivhaus into that and making it more sustainable by using.

Renee: Better insulation that's not just to like toxic. 'cause a lot of the materials are kind of toxic. I think it's gonna, it's gonna be a really good future.

James: Sweet. Yeah. I've got my heart set on Passivhaus straw bale for myself and for, you know, the world. Now you also have the Living Future accreditation.

James: And I don't really know a lot about that. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Renee: Yeah. So Living Future Accreditation is issued by the International Living Future Institute of they have one in the US as well. But for that, it, it's a lot about policy and practicing architecture in a humane way, which I wasn't expecting going into it 'cause I thought it was gonna be more like Passivhaus where I'm learning about.

Renee: Design strategies and how to, [00:11:00] where to put the hvac, where to put the water.

Renee: Right.

Renee: But LFA is more about having a just community. Like they have these different tiers where you're hiring people that are being treated well and you're, you're hiring. Con contractors, that they have these labels where, you know, they get this amount of time off and they get, you know, these benefits for their families and like making sure that the work environment is healthy, which I think was really exciting.

Renee: 'cause I didn't even know that, you know, this was part of the architecture world, so that was really great.

Renee: Right.

Renee: And it's not just architecture, I mean, there. You can find these labels all over for all kinds of different companies, right? Right. So when you're, you know, building a project and you want it to be a living building you need to incorporate companies that are actually treating their employees well and, and things like that.

Renee: So I, I thought that was really fantastic. And [00:12:00] so once I started, I was like, oh, this is awesome.

James: Nice. Yeah. Sort of like, um, fair trade. But for houses or for, for the, for the housing supply chain.

Renee: Yeah.

James: I think that's so important. 'cause if you get all into just the numbers side, like you said, you could use really toxic materials or you could, you know, oh, this one's cheaper, but like, why is it cheaper?

James: That kind of stuff. If you don't consider that, then you're only making an impact in one segment, but not maybe what you wanted.

Renee: And luckily, LFA also focuses on material aspects. Like it has all those basic things similar to lead, where it's like you can't use redless materials, like you have to use low flow fixtures, like things like that, right?

Renee: But then it also goes that step further and sure that the people that are installing that are being treated fairly. So I think. Because I also study for the lead exam. I just haven't taken it yet, but [00:13:00] it's just, I, I felt like LFA was really, it really took it one, I mean maybe like five steps further in.

Renee: And I think that's why it's one of the harder things to get for a building. Like if you want a living building it, it's a lot more difficult because it has a lot more criteria.

James: Right, right. Do you feel like it works well with Passivhaus? Like do they sit nicely together?

Renee: I asked this question during class.

Renee: Yeah. Yeah.

Renee: I think that they can, but there are definitely some things that still need to develop on the Passivhaus front with the installation, for example. Right? Like a lot of, like the insulation is so toxic and has a high carbon.

Renee: Mm-hmm.

Renee: Um, so. It's definitely moving more towards being compatible and in the future.

Renee: I mean, I would love to combine all of everything. Nice,

Renee: nice.

Renee: Um, and I, I think it is definitely gonna head in that direction. I think it's already starting to, because we're starting to see [00:14:00] mushroom like mycelium insulation and things like that, that are gonna have really great installation properties that you can install in your Passivhaus.

Renee: And then you can also go for living building because you did all the other things and had. These contractors that were working on the project and and things like that. And then also, once Passivhaus is starting to go more into the commercial realm, which I think they're also trying to do. Yeah. From the people that I spoke to, um, that's gonna be a game changer.

James: Hmm. Yeah. I suppose because Passivhaus is just a set of a, a performance then. Whatever you use to get that performance work, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hmm. Did you find the course harder for the LFA versus the CPHC?

Renee: No. Uh, CPHC was [00:15:00] definitely more difficult because you, there's a design exam where you have to design a Passivhaus and you have to hit every criteria, so they give you a.

Renee: For versus LFA. For example, LFA is modules that you work through, and at the end, as long as you pass all of your tests you get your LFA at the end, right? Versus CPHC. You not only have to do a des like a design exam, but you also have the multiple choice questions at the end. I, for how many questions?

Renee: It was, I think it was about a hundred or less, but maybe it was 50, but. Then you also had to design a house that was to certify Passivhaus standards. Mm-hmm. So doing that as a student was interesting because we had, none of us had ever actually designed Right, right. A house. But I think it, it was great.

Renee: I mean, but learning about especially HVAC systems and, and different systems that you can put in to these houses and then [00:16:00] going through and searching through. 'cause they don't give you. Like, which ones to use for which climate. Like that's something that you have to learn throughout the course and then apply at the end.

Renee: Right.

Renee: So I thought that was really great and very effectful effective. Just because it wasn't just like, oh, here's the information and now you're CPHC.

James: Right. Did, does that make it make feel more real to you or, or more have more weight? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Renee: It definitely feels more real. It feels like I can actually.

Renee: Do that in the future.

James: Cool. I think that's an important part of marketing Passivhaus is the educate, like marketing it to people who. Then feel empowered to do something like that's,

Renee: that's,

James: it's all marketing. Like I think of marketing as just spreading of ideas, right? So there's marketing to the governments, to the schools, to the customers.

James: Or I often talk about like the customer's [00:17:00] family, you know, if you're thinking of doing this quote unquote wild and crazy idea, how do you sell it to your partner? You know, that kind of thing. Nice. So another question I had, I noticed in your bio you mentioned having grown up in Germany, do you feel an affinity to Passivhaus because of that?

James: Do you think?

Renee: I mean, originally when I learned about Passivhaus, I. I thought it was really cool that it came from Germany for sure. Nice. And a lot of buildings in Germany are built to that standard.

Renee: Mm-hmm.

Renee: Um, so I mean, I feel proud. Nice. But I have never practiced there because I moved here when I was 10, so, it would be fantastic to be able to go there and design some Passivhauss though, but not as strong as people might think.

James: What do you mean?

Renee: Uh, like the, the fin, like the [00:18:00] connection that I feel to, ah, your

James: connection. Got it. Yeah. Got it. Well, I mean, I, a part of me wondered if like one of your parents maybe or someone in your.

James: A family background was an architect or practiced Passivhaus, which would make it something that was on your radar way earlier than it would be on others.

Renee: Well, my grandfather in Germany, he is an architect. But I didn't really know I wanted to do architecture until I got into engineering and I was like, okay, this math.

Renee: And chemistry and everything is like a lot for me. Hmm. So and I was really missing like that design aspect of it. 'cause I took a engineering course in high school and I had already gotten into college and I was gonna go do engineering. And after that course I was like, okay, I think I need to rethink this.

Renee: So I felt like architecture was the next best thing because [00:19:00] of the impacts that buildings have on the environment. So, and then it came full circle. I was like, oh my gosh, my grandfather's an architect. Why did I never think of this before?

James: Awesome. But it wasn't like in, in your house growing up you had like little books about Passivhaus for children or whatever.

Renee: No, I wish. But

James: yeah, next generation.

Renee: Yes.

James: Awesome. Well, is there anything else you wanted to. Share about your experiences like interacting with the world as a Passivhaus aficionado.

Renee: I'd say like now, after completing all my education, and I wish I could keep going. It's so amazing learning about architecture.

Renee: It's so great to see the world from all these different perspectives, like having those certifications. I think now when I look at buildings, I'm not just looking at like the. Structural expression. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is the type of [00:20:00] HVAC system they're using. You know? And being able to like notice those things I think is really nice because now I get to, I feel like I get to experience a whole different world.

Renee: Versus before it was just like, oh, this is a beautiful building and they use this type of, you know, exterior finish. But like now it's like, okay, this type of siding is probably made out of, you know, this amount of plastic. And, you know, because like. It probably has this installation property because when you're in Passivhaus, you have to add up all the different layers of the wall and everything.

Renee: So I think right, right now it's really great because I feel like I see everything in so much more detail than I did before. Which is surprisingly not overwhelming because I do enjoy it. So I, I think uh, it was a fantastic experience and I'm excited to be able to implement it in my internship in the fall.

James: Awesome. Well, I hope we stay in touch and

Renee: yeah,

James: I can hear about your experiences doing an internship with the CPHC, being like [00:21:00] a big part of it and, uh, just generally as your career progresses.

Renee: Yeah. Very cool. That'll be great.

James: And yeah, when I started getting into architecture, it was all just the look of things I didn't, I mean, I wasn't.

James: I didn't study architecture, but I just started getting really fascinated with it. And it took a while before I started getting fascinated with the, but what's it made of? And

Renee: mm-hmm.

James: Yeah.

Renee: Yeah. It does take a while. I mean, even in my education, like the first two years I was like. I am not really sure what's in the wall, but there is a wall.

Renee: So, I mean, but I think that's a universal experience because I mean, there's so much that you need to know. Yeah.

James: Yeah. Well, even just to start by noticing buildings.

Renee: Yeah. Like

James: there's a swaths of humanity that don't. Really even look up in that way. Right.

Renee: It's so funny when, whenever, especially when we go to [00:22:00] airports, 'cause I, I love airplanes is like another thing I, I really like.

Renee: Mm-hmm. And so whenever we're at the airport I'm always like, oh my God, look at the space truss that they used up there. My sister's like, stop. That's awesome. Of course my parents are like, oh cool.

James: Sounds great. Sounds like you're in the right place. I think.

Renee: Yeah, I think so.

James: Awesome. Uh, well this has been great.

James: Before we go, if you wanted to connect with people or if people wanted to reach out, where would be the best place for them to do that?

Renee: Um, I think definitely LinkedIn, pretty active on there. Just Renee Relf, and then, yeah, I should pop up. There's aren't that many of me yet. Nice

James: yet.

Renee: I think there's one other and she's an author, so

James: Right.

James: Not the author.

Renee: Yes.

James: Got it. Cool. Well, thanks so much for joining me today.

Renee: Thank you for having me.

James: You've been listening to Marketing Passivhaus. I'm James Turner and I hope you'll join me again next time.