16 - Michael Quast - Passive House Canada
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James: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Marketing Passive House, the podcast where we hear from architects, designers, suppliers, builders, owners, and other experts in the passive house and high performance building space. We'll be talking about what's working and what's needed when it comes to marketing buildings that meet or aspire to the passive house standard.

James: I'm your host, James Turner, and today I'm joined by Michael Quast, CEO of Passive House Canada. Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael: Thanks, James. Pleasure to be here.

James: Thanks. And so before we get into it, and for people who are just meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you started on your passive house journey?

Michael: Yeah, sure. So how did I get here? So I started at Passive House Canada at the end of April of 2025. And I will completely admit that I'd not really heard of passive house before. but I bring a bucket of different professional skills from marketing and [00:01:00] communications branding public relations, crisis management, not that there's any crisis here and you know business acumen as well. But I also bring a, a deep long rooted passion for sustainable construction. And that's really that blend of professional experience and my passion on the per personal side is sort of brought me to passive house. And I like to call it a unicorn job where, you know, you, you don't get to really often in your life connect your, your passion, your personal passion with your professional abilities. And that's what I've, I've been able to do here. So this feels like a dream job for me.

James: Nice.

Michael: On the building side. So my wife and I, we built I live in Oakville, Ontario, just to the west of Toronto. We built the first straw bale home in Oakville. About 20 years ago. So, it's not a passive house, I admit that freely and immediately when I'm talking to people.

Michael: But it is absolutely [00:02:00] sustainable. and it was being a new venture in the town of Oakville quite the journey. It took about two and a half years to navigate. You know, building code to deal with code officials to find lenders and insurers and financiers to be on side and then to find the right trades who were willing to experiment.

Michael: Because a lot of it was still experimental. I mean, it's come a long way. Straw bale construction in the last 20 years. But it was I mean it's an old, an old methodology for construction, but it was still relatively new. To Canada and there weren't a lot of practitioners. So, I understand that kind of journey of, you know trying to set out on a new path and, and recognizing that there's gotta be a better way to build. There's gotta be a, a way that you can look after the comfort of the people inside the building without, you know, destroying the planet at the same time. And are there things that I would do differently in this house today? A hundred [00:03:00] percent, but I'm, I'm really proud of this house. We still live in it. My wife and I raised our kids in here and it's been a great place and it's comforted and sheltered us nobly. I love this place.

James: Hmm. What a cool,

Michael: that passion is to, that was a long answer,

James: that was a great answer though.

Michael: is, is why I'm here,

James: Excellent. I I love that. And I remembered hearing that when you were on Zach Semke's podcast, you the, yeah, the, the Straw Bale house. I think that's very cool. That was kind of my in entry to, into passive house, was not through building a straw bale house, unfortunately.

James: But just that same thought. Like, there's gotta be a better way. There's, you know, there's, we don't have to just do. What's presented to us as the way that's very cool and kudos for

Michael: I, I like to push against boundaries and barriers and I like to ask why a lot and. When people tell me, you know, the answer is this is the way we've always done it, that to me is a, is a red flag. It's like,

James: Mm.[00:04:00]

Michael: okay. That's, that's a horrible reason to do something.

James: So my immediate. Curiosity about this is, have you noticed a difference over the 20 years when you tell people about your house or, you know, when have you noticed is, is there a, a sort of a, a feeling that people are catching on to anything? Or do you still have the same experience you did 20 years ago where you're starting from scratch?

Michael: That's a really good question. I don't know that anyone's ever asked me that question, James. That's a good question. I have to think about that for a second. I, I would say that my, instinct is not really and there are, there are two kinds of, of categories of people that listen to that story of straw bale construction.

Michael: There are the people who don't really understand building at all.

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: they've got no experience buildings with buildings rather and. Often the straw bale [00:05:00] component just sort of washes over them.

James: Hmm.

Michael: I can see it when I'm talking to them face to face. It's sort of like live in a straw bale house and all they really hear hear is I live in a house.

Michael: They don't actually hear the straw bale piece. And then as we talk more about the thickness of the wall and you know, et cetera, et cetera, they go, wait. what, what, what's in your, like, is is it a straw? Like is the straw exposed and then they start digging into it? So there's that category of, of people,

James: Right.

Michael: the, the category of people who are very familiar with buildings. And in this case residential construction. So you know, they will pick up on different parts and it depends on, you know, their passion, their interest you know, their expertise. If they're an architect, they're really interested in the design

James: Hmm.

Michael: If they're, you know, an engineer, their interested in the actual engineering and the construction. Often if they're a trades person, they're interested in, well, how did you manage, you know. [00:06:00] The utilities, like your, your water lines and your electrical lines, like how did you manage that? So,

James: Right.

Michael: That group, that's an interesting, you know, sort of detailed conversation. and then in inside that group and I found this also in the passive house space or the environmental space more broadly. but I remember when I first started. My wife and I looking at straw bale construction, we would have conversations with people who were immersed in straw bale building and, you know, the conversation around it and thinking about how to, you know, the performance of the wall and the assembly and you know, how to make it better and stronger and tighter and et cetera, et cetera.

James: Mm.

Michael: and what I discovered was that there was people inside that community who, It sort of lost patience with me. If they discovered that it wasn't a load bearing straw wall, like it, it, it wasn't enough that it was straw. It had to be a load bearing straw wall. Like they were purists. They were like, [00:07:00] you know, they were an in for a penny in for a pound.

Michael: It had to be this way. Don't go, you know, half measures are not gonna are, are not gonna cut it. And then you had other people who were like. Fantastic. That's great. You know maybe they were building a, a house, you know, a cord house or you know, a a a rammed earth house or something. So it wasn't straw, but they appreciated. You know, the, the pioneering energy and effort and focus to push boundaries and to get tradespeople and professionals talking about there's other ways to build. You know, and I remember way before we started the straw bale house, you know, the big thing was earth houses, like, you know, berm houses and digging them into berms and such.

Michael: So all those conversations are interesting conversations to have, but they have all sort of informed the way that I. Connect with different people and, and sort of carry those conversations further. So with the people who don't know anything about residential construction, the straw bale stuff is just, they think I've got [00:08:00] horses in the backyard and the horses for feeding.

Michael: And uh, and then, you know, with the purists that's an interesting conversation because as I do here at Passive House Canada, I firmly believe that even 10% is better than not being better and not pushing the envelope. So maybe you're not hitting a hundred percent, but if your focus and your effort suggests that you are you're emotionally and psychologically committed to, you know better building standards, to improving the environment, to making sure that the occupants are healthy inside how wherever you are on that journey my view is. Come along, like, let's celebrate, let's, let's connect, let's, um, embrace each other on that journey so that we can grow the numbers of people who are on that journey rather than isolating each other and saying, well, you're not far enough on that road. And, I guess, another really bad analogy is running.

James: [00:09:00] Mm-hmm.

Michael: Or cycling even. Like you see cyclists who are like, they're focused like they do, you know, a hundred k every Saturday and Sunday with their cycling buddies. They're, you know, dressed top to bottom. They, they look like they're in the Tour de France. They've got bikes that are worth like $12,000. And they may not wave to somebody who's on an electric bike.

James: Right.

Michael: it's like. I don't care if you're on a bike, you, you could be on a tricycle for all I care. Like wherever you are on that cycling journey. If you're starting or you're into it for 20 years, you're cycling, you're doing something, you're exercising, you're enjoying the road. That's fantastic. That's my viewpoint.

James: I love it. And feel exactly the same way. My, my small nod to that in my intro is I say, meet or aspire to the passive house standard.

Michael: Yeah.

James: it is the same, right? It's like the, the, the, the logic is the same. Like you may not be able to get all the way, or, or. Maybe you, you tried, you tried and [00:10:00] you failed, but you didn't fail because you've still got an amazing house that

Michael: A hundred

James: was built,

Michael: percent,

James: you know, with that in mind, the same why I suppose.

Michael: yeah. And for some people it's like, well, you didn't cross the end zone, so,

James: Yeah,

Michael: and I'm thinking, nah, you're on the field.

James: that's right. You played,

Michael: Yeah,

James: can still say that. Yeah.

Michael: Yep.

James: Nice. Yeah. So I was with that in mind, have you found that? Your being in the passive house space and having a, an alternate home that's not a passive house. House. Have you found that to sort of force people into that mindset a bit more? Like does it, does it help?

James: Like if you had a perfect passive house, then you could say that you thought that way, but then still be like, yeah, but mine. Mine fits the standard. So by, by almost, it almost like a, it's a vulnerability almost.

Michael: Yeah, I I, I acknowledge that some people might [00:11:00] that you know, when we connect and we, and we speak, I don't get that. What I get is, you know, you're on the field. We're all on the

James: Nice.

Michael: fantastic. Let, let's play the game. I get, I get lots of that. And that's really what I expected when I first arrived in the role. because the one thing, and I learned this already you know, started learning it more than 20 years ago, is that for the most part, people who were on that. They don't have all the answers either.

James: Hmm.

Michael: and the way that you solve problems requires a lot of collaboration, a lot of engagement. You need to be open and honest with those questions.

Michael: You can't be, you know hiding or, or somehow proprietary with your information or your knowledge, like you really need to learn. other people who have done something or have experienced it and they go, yeah, this really works, or This doesn't work, don't do that again. So I'm finding a lot of that very [00:12:00] collaborative you know, very open, very engaging. And that works for, you know, energy modelers, architects engineers, trades people. Like it's, I think if. You know, at, certainly at this level in terms of passive house, and you're talking about, you know, whether it's residential buildings or whatever, the building typology. If you're at this level and you're talking about passive house and you're thinking about scale then you are probably in the camp of just get on the field.

Michael: Just get on the field, start the conversation. Let's engage, let's support each other. Let's talk. And I'm finding a lot of that to be true.

James: Nice. Yeah, it is. I've had nothing but positive experiences and I, I was a little nervous because I, I'm not a builder at all. Like, I'm, I'm, I, you know, I have a marketing and copywriting background and musician and, you know, thing, things that are not related. I don't even have any, any real reason to be in this space other than just like this.

James: Burning [00:13:00] desire for us to do better with building. Yeah. And I haven't, I was worried for a long time. I was really worried about, about talking about it and not being accepted. Yes, yes. Which, I mean, if I pretended to be a builder, that would be fair. But, you know I found it to be nothing but open and inviting and interested and, and collaborative really a very, like no one's trying to corner the market on the well that I've seen anyway.

James: On, on.

Michael: I'm relieved to

James: Yeah.

Michael: that. That's your experience. 'cause it's also been my experience.

James: Wonderful. So now, yeah. Turning to the idea of, of bringing people who aren't even in the space at all, those people who come to your house and the word straw bale washes over their head. Do you may, and now maybe in the context, you're not really trying to show off your home in, in that way, so it maybe doesn't make sense.

James: But I, I wonder if, if there are things that you describe about your house that, that land with people when straw doesn't, when when they, [00:14:00] they don't get that, but they get some other aspect. They're like, oh, I want that. Do, do you have any?

Michael: There are, and, and, and that gets into. broader question of how do you engage people to get on board with the journey of, you know. Better building performance. Like how do you commit to that? And

James: Yeah.

Michael: that, you know, connects with the building community. You know, the, the developers, the builders you know, the professionals part of the design team, the energy modelers, the people who actually have to build it, the tradespeople the suppliers, the manufacturers, the politicians.

Michael: Like there's just so many.

James: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Michael: that need to be engaged to make that viable and to make it happen. And it happens in different pockets and different municipalities across the country. I, I think part of it is you try to connect and, and you do this, James, this is your business, right? I mean, you find how you can connect with individuals, like what's the thing that matters to them? What's their [00:15:00] experience? What's their, what's their point of view on the world? Like, what are the things that matter to them? And so I've had people come by my house who wanna learn more about it or they've heard more about it, or, you know, they hear this draw and it starts to tweak. They're more focused about their health.

Michael: They maybe have you know, health concerns or they're

James: Hmm.

Michael: their kids or, or family members and they recognize, you know, the challenges of off-gassing inside the house or you know, just how important fresh air is to, you know, the indoor space.

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: they think about light and your mental health. So it's not always just physical health. They might be thinking about sound like how do you, you know, manage the sound in a building? And you know, when your walls are 18 inches thick, you got some pretty good soundproofing as well

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: you know insulation to, you know, hot and cold spikes. The one common base that I find with all those people is the [00:16:00] pocketbook.

Michael: Like when you can start talking about the economics,

James: Right.

Michael: and. You know, the value of, you know, not spending as much on energy to heat and cool the space or, you know down, myths or assumptions, stereotypes even about the cost or the higher cost of construction, insurance, financing,

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: those things.

Michael: And I often end up talking about that stuff. So the entry point might be, you know, your, your mental health you know, because of the way that the light hits the house or just the aesthetic of the house. It's a little different.

James: Right.

Michael: I mean, our house, just our design, it's. Aesthetic. My wife and I, we really like this.

Michael: The American Southwest, we like that Adobe style.

James: Hmm.

Michael: our house looks like sort of a, a house that was ripped out of Arizona which lends itself to the straw bale construction piece too, does not lend itself to the street that we're on. And so when people walk along the street, they go. What is that? [00:17:00] And people often have a very visceral reaction to our as. They either love it or they hate it, which is fine. But then you have that conversation. It's like you're, you're trying to, to bring them in. And then I find ultimately when you start talking about the economics, that's where you sort of land and you really gain some traction.

Michael: And they go, huh, that's interesting. And then some of them even take it away and it just sits there as a, as, as a lovely little acorn and it's just waiting to, you know, get some water and some sunshine and it takes root. And lo and behold, they start building a, a more sustainable house themselves.

James: Nice. And so was that true even 20 years ago that the, where the economics, I, I imagine that that's something that's, that's changing with, with time.

Michael: the, the cost to build a straw bail house was exponentially more expensive.

James: Okay.

Michael: it was like way more expensive.

James: Hmm.

Michael: you were making it up. You,

James: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: you know, you had conventional trades come and [00:18:00] go, come into the house and they go, I have no idea how to do that. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. Which is again, it was, is great, right? That's a journey. So we are so much further ahead now, like when we talk about passive house, we've got. know, I mean, it's, it's a completely different thing than what I was doing 20 years ago, but,

James: But alternate building.

Michael: as you know, that's based in science. We've got manufacturers who are certified. We know that those components built into the house are gonna do that. We've got design teams who are working together really efficiently, like they've got some experience now building a passive house, and it might be a murb, it might be a, a fire hall. It might be a school, might be a residential building but with that experience, the costs go down. And you know, we've got data now that shows that really the, the, the cost differential between a conventional build and a passive house build. You know, [00:19:00] if there is one, it's not big

James: Hmm.

Michael: odds are if you've got the right design team on it. It's, there is no, no extra cost. but when you look at the savings and the performance of that building, you know, going forward, like there's no comparison.

Michael: It's like, it, it's like a no-brainer as they say.

James: Yeah.

Michael: why, why would you build anything else? That just makes no sense.

James: Yeah. Yeah, I've been hearing that also the, the larger scale, the higher up the scale you go, the more that that rings true. Like it, the, the cost parody, like once you're doing a bunch of units. Yeah.

Michael: the benefits are big too, right? I

James: Yeah.

Michael: one of the really interesting spaces and again, I'm new to the community,

James: Hmm.

Michael: I'm learning, I'm asking lots of people. I'm, I'm, I'm trying to drink from the fire hose as fast as I can, James. But one of the really interesting spaces that I think we can offer really demonstrable value. And we've got great examples already in the ground and coming outta the ground [00:20:00] is around social and community housing, where public dollars are being spent to house people who, who are challenged to find affordable housing and, which is weird 'cause that's a challenge pretty much across the board right now.

Michael: But,

James: Yeah.

Michael: Who need that sort of affordable housing solution. Passive house makes so much sense where, where the public dollars or the, the social housing provider is actually now also the owner and operator of that building.

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: cost to them is dramatically reduced. You know, the likelihood of repairs is pushed out further. cost of those re repair repairs is. Push down because there's not as many components that they're gonna break in that house. And the benefits to the occupants, you know, if, if they're inside that building, the health benefits, the mental health benefits. There's some interesting stuff coming out now about, you know, how important the space is to your mental health.

James: Yep.

Michael: [00:21:00] And we do have the mental health crisis I think internationally, but certainly in Canada. And so. Where we live matters to, you know, how we interact with the space and interact with each other. And then, it also has an impact on energy poverty. So if you're a renter in a, in a building, you know, being able to afford the rent, that's one of the big hurdles.

Michael: But then being able to afford the, the heating and cooling for that space, that can also be, you know, a huge barrier to affordability and housing.

James: Yeah.

Michael: when you live in a passive house, those costs go down.

James: Yeah.

Michael: go down. So if you're renting, your costs are down, which makes sense if you're the social and community housing provider in that community or municipality, that the, the whole story so much sense.

James: Yeah.

Michael: But you can also apply it then to the condo space you know, to developers that if they want a more valuable a asset, if they're just building [00:22:00] to develop and then to sell. they're gonna be selling a more valuable asset if they're building to own and operate. Then the same sort of metric that applies on the social on the space also applies in the private space. So, you know. There, there are so many good stories to tell about the economics of passive house or just BU building performance. Improving the

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: And it goes back to that other thing. You know, maybe you don't have passive house certification, but you're near passive house. You're still gonna realize, you know, incredible benefits.

James: Yeah. Yeah. And like who, who? People who going back to the social housing, I was thinking, 'cause one of the things I really like and want I is houses that will stay livable for three, four days if the power goes out. I live in a 1950s bungalow here in Fredericton, and if the power goes out in the winter, it's 12 hours, like until it's, you [00:23:00] know, 15 degrees and going down.

James: And if you are in affordable housing, you can't go and stay in a hotel. You can't be like, oh, shucks, you know, you're, that's it. So it also really makes sense. It's, it's more a,

Michael: yeah. If, if there's a, you know, the grid goes down and you're without power you need to be able to seek, you know, safe shelter where you are,

James: yeah,

Michael: should be able to.

James: yeah, yeah. Hmm.

James: That's, to me, when I get thinking on that line of things, I get really fired up. I'm like, okay, we've gotta somehow organize all the affordable housing builders and, and societies across the country, and especially now when they're, they're trying to build a million things and like, I just hope that the right people are, are tuning in right now as they, they try to,

Michael: Oh, [00:24:00] I think there are, and it,

James: yeah.

Michael: time, James.

James: Yeah.

Michael: like you, you know, these things don't happen overnight. we learn from each other. We learn from mistakes. Doesn't always work. Sometimes it works better than other times. and, and, you know, I think about the building space.

Michael: I've got a lot of experience in the residential space. I have experience dealing with builders different, you know, small, medium, large volume builders. And there are some enormous pressures on builders and developers,

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: and, I keep, I keep saying to folks who are listening construction, to be a general contractor or a developer and builder is to be in one of the risk spaces with the lowest margins on a business side.

James: Hmm.

Michael: thing you're gonna do as a business person is try to find more risk. How can I possibly add more risk to this project?

James: Right.

Michael: And I mean, they don't wanna do [00:25:00] that. They want to reduce the costs, they wanna get the project done. They don't want, they want to cut through the red tape that might be existing.

Michael: And so when I think when they hear just conversations around better building performance and they don't have experience with it, I think what they hear is cost. I think what they hear is red tape. what they hear is complications to, you know, the building process.

James: Right.

Michael: Delays and you know, the inability to source materials and and to get goods.

Michael: And I think that was probably the case 20 years ago when I was building my straw bale house, a hundred percent. It was hard

James: Right.

Michael: cost more. It was hard to find the trades who were interested in, in playing and expanding, but I think that landscape has changed dramatically in 20 years.

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: you know, like I, in this community, I haven't seen one person bat their eye when I talk about a straw bale house because straw bale house can also be part of the construction methodology for a passive house, right?

Michael: There are lots of different ways to get [00:26:00] to passive house,

James: Yeah.

Michael: And there are lots of different practitioners playing with different, you know, models, different scenarios, different typologies and different products to get to passive host. and and that's interesting. And it also depends on the geography.

Michael: Where in the country are you? You know, how much water are you getting? How much snow are you getting? How much wind do you get? You know, where's the sun sitting? So there are different ways to passive a house.

James: Yeah.

Michael: so I feel like the conversation is much more mature than it was a couple of decades ago. And I get really excited when I think where it's gonna be a couple of decades from now. Like, we'll be thinking about, you know like, like the step code in BC has done amazing things for the way that builders, developers, engineers, architects, and even people, citizens, regular folk, you know, who occupy those spaces, those buildings that they live, work and play in those [00:27:00] buildings. It has done amazing things to change the way they think. And to go. We can do better. We can step this up. And there are, it feels to me like slowly over time there's more and more municipalities or you know, towns even that are going, let's change the rules. So you see that even in the states where some states are doing that,

James: Yeah.

Michael: just sort of breaking away from the federal model and they're saying, well. We can't change everything in the states, but we can change what happens within the border of this state.

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: and I think some of that is happening in Canada too. And that's exciting because I think in 20 years we won't even be having that

James: Right. This podcast will be pointless.

Michael: No, it'll be great. It'll be in the archives, James.

Michael: It'll be part of the historical record. This is what helped us get there.

James: mm-hmm. I like that.[00:28:00]

James: So I get think one more thing. I I want to hear your, your take on. Because I'm conscious of the time is how we might be able to bring more people who are in that, not like the, either the builders who are still hearing like cost, how to bring them in and show them, Hey, you know, it's safe. It's, it's better.

James: You'll, you'll like it better. You'll enjoy your work more. And, and, and, or the, the general public like I, or. I've, I've had this idea that there should be like a network of Airbnbs across the country where if, if you're thinking about passive host, you're forced to go and yeah.

Michael: on a call. We need a, we need a passive house hotel in

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Yeah, so I, I think there's different lever levers and different ways to connect with different stakeholders on the, on the builder, developer side and, and. You know, quite frankly, there are some great builders, let me put that out there right now.

James: Of course,[00:29:00]

Michael: who because there are some great buildings that are passive house, so they had to be built by somebody. But there's a lot of builders who I think have not, taken the, the leap of faith to an extent where they go. Well, what are the economics like? They're not even really looking at the numbers.

Michael: They're not talking to other colleagues maybe who are playing already in the passive house space. and I think that will improve over time. But I think the way that you talk to builders and developers is you need to help them manage their risk. And, you know, the risk can be financial, but it can also be, you know, on the building side it can be delays which ultimately is financial too.

Michael: But it can be in managing you know, code expectations. It can be managing building officials. It can be you know, finding the right design team and the expertise that you need to get the building done. But [00:30:00] I think there's a really already, a really good. story to tell. And I think we need to do a better job telling that story to those stakeholders so that they recognize. Because if you look at it, you go, okay, I can keep building conventionally the way that I build. I know how to do that. I know where the trades are. They know how to do this as well. But if you can show a model of building a better building. And you can show them that they'll still have access to access to trades.

Michael: They'll have the design team, they'll have the products. They don't have to worry about that. The cost is basically the same too. the real difference is once it's op. asset is worth more. You're gonna have, if you're renting that space, for example, if it's a murb then you're gonna have people who wanna be in that building because it's a better building.

Michael: It's

James: Right.

Michael: So you probably get better rent outta that building if you're renting it. And the cost you know, it's to run and operate. That building [00:31:00] is gonna be reduced. then they start looking at the economics and they go, well, wait a minute. Why am I building conventionally? Like, that makes no sense.

Michael: If you're taking away. The risk on the cost and, and, you know, finding the design teams and the tradespeople, and you pull that away and you go, but the real benefit is operating it or selling it or having people rent in it. That's where you're gonna make money. More money. Like you're gonna make more money.

Michael: You'll actually. have money in your pocket that you are leaving behind, right?

James: Hmm.

Michael: So I think that's one way to connect with that group, and I think that's a really important conversation to have because. I, I personally, this is my view, don't feel that there are enough builders and developers involved in the conversation right now.

Michael: There's a lot of architects and engineers. There's energy models, there's some tradespeople, but we need more, more builders. We need the people who are actually putting the money on the table to build the building.

James: Yes.

Michael: the other part is how do you [00:32:00] connect with. people who are not part of the built environment space. So you know, people who might be the, the renters or they might be the purchasers of buildings like that, or they might be working in those spaces. You know, there's a, a fire hall that went up in bc so you know, you've got firefighters that having a great, they love that space, they love it.

James: Right.

Michael: but how do you connect with those people? To have a conversation. And that's not a financial conversation,

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: a conversation around your health. And, and, and it needs to be personal. I mean, I, I, I, I think there are, if you asked anybody on the street, do you care about, you know, global warming? Most people, not everyone, but most people are gonna go, yeah, that's important to me.

James: Right.

Michael: But at the end of the day, you need to make it personal. You need to, you need to connect with people at. You know, where they live and, and things that matter to them, which going back to that straw conversation, like are they coming to it from a physical health and [00:33:00] mental health, an aesthetic, you know, design aesthetic point of view. You need to find ways to connect with those people. And that's where marketing, I think, and communications comes in because you need to talk to them about the space and how it's going to make their life better. It's gonna make their life easier, it's gonna make their life more enjoyable. It's it, and at the same time, it has all these other benefits that are. More universal or global or, you know, it's gonna reduce the, the carbon footprint and, and you know, carbon use for fossil fuels, for example. And those all have enormous benefits as well. But at, at heart of it, you need to connect with an individual and tell 'em a story that's relevant to them. And on the residential side, this is a pet peeve of mine. And I don't know how to change this. maybe, maybe people listening to this have brilliant and ID ideas, and I would love to hear them on the residential side. When I look at houses, most houses like track housing and, and [00:34:00] and that sort of thing, they're not, they're not on the forefront of sustainability.

Michael: There are some builders who are doing really interesting things and, and novel things, but there's not a lot of. Passive house, track housing going up.

James: Yeah.

Michael: And part of that, there's lots of different reasons, but part of it is I think the consumer has developed a perception of the house as a consumer product.

James: Mm.

Michael: it's not a place where we live like it used to be. I'm, I'm not a young guy anymore, but used to be where you. Put roots down. You had this idea that you were gonna be there for 20, 30 years, maybe your entire life, maybe your, your children or relatives would, you know, take the house like you were building a community in when you, when you landed in a house. And you still see that in different parts of the world. I was in, in France you know, in September. You see that in France, [00:35:00] like in Paris, like a lot of those buildings in Paris. They just get passed on from one family generation to the next. Like they just stay in the family like,

James: Right.

Michael: I mean. To buy, to buy an apartment in Paris is horribly expensive, so it just gets passed on. But here it's sort of like a starter home. It's like you buy a house, you know, you're, you're out in the suburbs you know of Toronto and you're far away and you're commuting or you're working from home, whatever. But you're far away you're thinking, okay, in two years I'm gonna. Scale up, I'm gonna get a, you know, a, a

James: Hmm.

Michael: closer or it's gonna be bigger.

Michael: And then, you know, five years down the road I'm gonna scale up and it's gonna be a bigger house. And people who live in those spaces don't really understand how houses work. Like we pay attention to all the things that don't really matter sometimes. And I learned this when I was with Mike Holmes and we were doing, rescuing homeowners from unscrupulous contractors as it were.

James: Right.

Michael: [00:36:00] Homeowners focus on granite countertops and crown molding. They're not really interested in what's behind the drywall.

James: Hmm.

Michael: and you know, how thick the wall is or what material inside that wall is, and is it offgassing and you know, how long is it gonna last?

Michael: They're more interested in the here and now. And it's that, that thing I was saying, it's like you need to find a way to connect with people,

James: Hmm.

Michael: And. At some point, the pendulum in my mind is gonna swing and people are gonna see houses as much more than just an iPhone. They're gonna see it as something that is actually way more important to their health, to their mental health, to their pocketbook and if they can live in a space that helps them, protects them, shelters them. And does it all for less cost. Then at some point the pendulum will swing, and that's what they're gonna start asking for. They're gonna say to the builders, that's what we want, and the builders are gonna go, okay, I'll build it for you, because the builders will build it. If they can sell it,

James: Right, [00:37:00] right. Nice. Well that feels like an excellent place to, to leave this off. This has been great, wonderful conversation. Before we go, where is the best pa place for people to go to find more about you and connect with you online?

Michael: They can go to our website, first off, if they wanna more know more about passive house

James: Mm-hmm.

Michael: passive house canada.com. and, they can reach me at Michael dot quast at passive house canada dot com. And I am more than happy to have those conversations, as you can tell.

James: Yes. Yes. They can give you the feedback that you, you were just asking for.

Michael: great. Yep.

James: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining me today.

Michael: Thank you, James. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about It's important.

James: Indeed, you've been listening to Marketing Passive House. I'm James Turner, and I hope you'll join me again next time.

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