32 - Mark Attard - Point 6
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James: Hello, and welcome to Marketing Passive House, the podcast where we hear from architects, designers, builders, suppliers, owners, and other experts in the passive house and high-performance building space. We'll be talking about what's working and what's needed when it comes to marketing buildings that meet or aspire to the passive house standard.

James: I'm your host, James Turner, and today I'm joined by Mark Attard, founder and director of Point Six Building Science Consultants, and also a certified passive house consultant and tradesperson. Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark: Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this

James: nice.

Mark: I really appreciate what you've been what you've been doing over the last... How's it been? How long has it been? About a year and a half

James: About a year. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

James: yeah, about a year.

Mark: Yeah.

James: a full year since the first episode went out, but I've been working in the, in the background.

Mark: Yeah.

James: Cool. Thank you so much for saying. And yeah, that, that's great to hear. Great feedback and pushes me forward. So before we get into it, and for people who are just meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you started on your passive house journey?

Mark: Sure. So I as you mentioned in the intro, I'm a pas-- I'm a CPH C and a C-CPHT, and how I'm applying that is my own building science consultancy with my partner, Shawn LeMons. And we are looking to take Passive House principles to push high-performance building. We, of course, love to work on certified projects, but we will work on projects that aren't necessarily certified just to help folks understand the intricacies of how a building works and the importance of taking a holistic approach.

Mark: So we'll do the energy modeling, we'll do the, Heating and cooling design. We will do detail review, plan review help with detail development, and we will also go out into the field and help with applying those things. We'll do verification work in the field blower doors commissioning, that, that kind of thing. And we will also work with subcontractors and contractors who maybe don't have an experience with this type of construction and help them with sequencing and inspecting critical junctures of their build.

James: Nice.

Mark: I got into this is I've been a-- I had been a builder for probably...

Mark: going back to college, I was putting myself through college as a a laborer and then a carpenter. So I have experience in cabinet making, finish carpentry, framing, all aspects of construction. And I got involved in, construction from there on a full-time basis after college. And when I moved out here to Colorado, I started getting involved with some organizations that were pushing high performance building and particularly Passive House. And there was a project that a company that I was working for at the time was involved with called GEOS, which was the-- I believe was the first net zero energy community in the United States here in Arvada. The developer was interested in using Passive House principles to to advance the performance of the entire project. So I took my first Passive House class back in two thousand and nine or nine with Katrin before there was a Phius and before there was a PHI. And along the line I worked my way into the CPHT, and then the CPHC. And over the years had always had the desire to move into the consulting side of things and started Point Six technically in two thousand twenty-three. Came together with Shawn Lamond last year decided to partner with him, and we officially launched the ver- this version of Point Six in this past fall. We're excited about it. I think we're getting a really excellent response and are look-looking forward to im-impacting a lot of buildings moving forward.

James: Awesome. Before going any further on anything, I wanna talk about the name. So you've chosen a very deliciously nerdy kind of name, Point Six. Do you wanna talk about the choice of making that name and

Mark: Yeah. O-one of the things that's part of my history is that I was before I got into construction full-time is a commercial photographer i-in Detroit for a long a long time. And so I, I have this background in marketing on, on the-- i-in advertising through being a, what would be considered a, in the construction world, being a subcontractor, right?

Mark: I was just producing the photos. I wasn't creating headlines, I wasn't creating taglines or anything like that, but I got to know And when I was looking to start the consulting firm, I wanted something that referenced Passive House and, 475 famously is already taken, 475. So I looked and I saw I'm like what about point six?"

Mark: And I don't know, it just kinda hit me. And this was before, Shawn and I had partnered up and before there was anybody to tell me that it wouldn't be a good idea, and I just went with it. As people may or may not know, point six is the ACH requirement for a Passive House classic certification for the airtightness of a building.

Mark: So I felt like that was pretty apropos.

James: Nice. ACH being air changes per hour. Correct.

Mark: Sorry.

James: Yes. That's all right.

Mark: You'll have to do, you'll have to do that on occasion. I can throw acronyms around with the best of them,

James: right, which is, I believe, part of this whole marketing passive house conundrum. I don't know if that's the word, but there, there's a lot of esoteric knowledge that, that is... leads to good things, but, if talked about without explaining the good things, maybe gets lost. And I wondered about that with the name.

James: If you're working with people who aren't in the passive house world and you're trying... do they ever... Maybe they don't ask about it. Maybe that's not how you meet clients, and it's not relevant in that way. But I'm, I was wondering about that.

Mark: Yeah. The only time that anybody has asked us about it was actually Shawn was at Building Science the Building Science camp with Joe Lstiburek this past summer, and Katrin from Phius was there. And he was talking to her, and she would-- she felt like the name was like it was a little esoteric, but she also felt she took it quite literally. And she and she kinda feels like the that there's different ways of measuring air changes and that the number the number isn't quite as important. And I was-- and my point of view is know it.

Mark: If you ask anybody who's in the passive house world what are the requirements?" That air change requirement's gonna come up.

Mark: So the-- for the people who know, they know, and they know what it is. The people that don't know, they don't really ask about it. People come up with all kinds of names.

James: Yeah.

Mark: There, there's E- there's EMU, right? And they're great, and everybody knows them for Passive House, but what does EMU have to do anything with the Passive House?

James: Fair enough. Yep.

Mark: that's for them, it's it's like the one place that you can go to in a business and you can put a little bit of your own personality on it.

Mark: You can put a little bit of your own spin on it without, w- without it necessarily having to mean something very specific.

James: Nice.

Mark: Companies, re- regardless of whether they're in our industry or not, their n- their names have evolved to mean something completely different over time, or they've, or they s- purposefully influenced the ch- change in the meaning of those names.

Mark: So I I don't wanna be flippant about it, and I did choose the name specifically because it's Passive House related, but I don't, I, I don't feel like it's super important that it has to relate to Passive House necessarily.

James: I thought it could be like a crafty way of getting into conversation. Like it

James: thing that le- lets you, leads you perfectly into what you do, what you offer, right?

Mark: It... it does do that on, it does do

James: Yeah.

Mark: for sure. But like I said it's it is interesting that we haven't had a lot of people go what? What's Point 6?" And, you had mentioned or that you went to the website and you said, "Oh, building science consultants."

Mark: That's something we recently added because we just had Point 6 on the website. And you, You have to dig in quite a bit i-into the

James: Right.

Mark: added building science consultants just because that's a really quick way for people to go, "Oh, okay, I know what they do." So

James: Yep.

Mark: own can be fairly esoteric, for sure.

James: yeah. Yes, I think it's important that every website, when you land on it, you should be able to instantly know what is it, who's it for, and why is that important.

Mark: Yeah, and I will

James: yeah.

Mark: reason why we said building science consultants is because even though we are using all the tools provided by us through Passive House, and that is how we establish develop an energy model, that's how we establish heating and cooling requirements for a project a-and a number of other different components.

Mark: We're not necessarily always working with projects that are looking for certification. We're l- working with builders, architects who maybe are just looking to advance the ball a little bit beyond code. So Passive House was the one place that we felt the tools that were provided there, that we could provide the verifiable information that we think is required in order to build a high-performance project. 'Cause it's really easy to say, "Oh yeah, we build high performance. We put continuous insulation on the outside of the building," or whatever it is that you do. But where's the data? Tell me what-- how has that improved your building? Yeah, on its surface you can say yeah, that makes sense." You put continuous insulation on the outside of your building and it improves the building.

Mark: But on what level does it improve the building? And to, to what point? Did you put enough continuous insulation on the outside? Did you even need to put continuous insulation on the outside of the building? Could you have done it a different way? these things are not answerable without some sort of s- mathematical formulation and building science on, in your energy modeling, and we just didn't feel like any other energy models were out there were offering the same level of specificity that you get out of a Passive House planning package.

James: Do you find-- So I'm curious to know, do you end up getting involved in projects when you'd like to, or do you find yourself called in and thinking, "Oh, I wish you'd asked us before you started all this"?

Mark: It's funny 'cause we have a project right now where we definitely didn't get involved when we would i-ideally

Mark: Somewhere around schematic design, right? Towards the end of schematic design where s- where floor plans are set, elevations are set, window placement is set, but there's still opportunity to make adjustments to those things depending on what our, the data from our model is suggesting, right?

Mark: But we do have a project right now where they came to us after they were permitted, so they were-- they could have broke ground and they said the client-- this was a builder and the cl- and the client decided they wanted to get certified Passive House. And so basically what we're, what we've been doing is we've been doing a retrofit on the plans.

James: Nice.

Mark: we had to put together, we had to put togeth- the builder had to put together a change order, and of course our fees were involved in that change order, and they also needed to have some sort of basic understanding of, where they were gonna go in the project in terms of additional materials, different types of materials that might have impacted the budget.

Mark: Because again, not... if you're at permit, you have a budget, right? You... It's not like you, you have the ability to say, "Oh we'll put more money over here and maybe less money over there." This budget is set. So the levers that you can pull as a consultant bec- are really restricted in that kind of a situation.

Mark: But we took the project on and, they let's see, they're going to be doing their contin- their insulation layer underneath their basement slab, I believe next week. we've just been working with them, developing details the model put together and telling them where we need it to go.

Mark: In fact, j-just in the last few days, we had a meeting with them and said we're meeting all the requirements and... But we would like a little bit more cushion in this project just because it's your first project, things get missed. We wanna make sure that we have some room so that you can still meet certification." So they were really good. We went through we pulled the levels, levers that we could pull, which weren't very many, but we ca- we came to the conclusion that if we added more insulation on the below grade walls, we were gonna, we were gonna get some significant movement in the overall, energy load of the building enough to make us feel a little bit more comfortable. So they were like, "Okay we can do that." And they Then the next step for us was then to work with them on what was gonna-- in order to achieve that R-value upgrade that we requested, what's the most cost-effective way to do that? And the considerations there aren't just the materials, of course.

Mark: They're also, one more labor-intensive

James: Right.

Mark: What's the availability of the the materials? Because there's also a timing, because now we're in construction. So this is not what I would say the ideal way to do it, right? I-- it, it's proving to be doable, for sure. and would venture a guess it would be it would likely be more cost-effective if we had been able to do this all before they, they went in for permitting. But I wouldn't recommend doing this unless you had a team that was really completely 100% on board and really

Mark: Of meeting the end goals of certification.

Mark: If you're not looking for certification necessarily, but you're looking for that verifiable data to, to improve a project that's at that stage. But certification's a much higher risk,

James: There's a high... I see what you mean. Yeah, I feel like there's a balance to be had too, and I was thinking spec- again, from the marketing perspective. You're coming in as the experts on a s- a particular angle and, but they also, it needs to be like not too terribly unpleasant of an experience, right?

James: There's some kind of customer service and, you're, you have to provide the expert advice, but you also need to make it not something that they would not recommend to anyone ever again, right? I f- I feel like that, it feels like a hard balance to strike.

Mark: It is, but

Mark: I will say is that I think my experience being in the custom home construction world for many years ha- really taught me a lot about how to how to approach these kinds of hurdles that you deal with and communicate those in such a way that is Helping m-meet the objectives of the project, which the objectives of the project really ultimately are the objectives of the client. And I would say that I've adopted I've adopted maybe not all, m-may- maybe not always the best in some situations, but it works for the majority of situations of a very clear and straightforward form of communication.

James: Okay.

Mark: conversation that I had with the builder, I could have said I could have gone I could have taken the approach of we're meeting the certification requirements. Why have a conversation about this? Why not just keep moving forward

Mark: Everything goes smoothly and we meet and still hitting the certification requirements when it's important, which is at the end of the project."

Mark: But I felt like it was important to point out the fact that there's some risk here, and more risk than I'm comfortable with at this point. So let's l- let's come up with a solution to that risk because it isn't about me and whether we can get certification. It's about whether that client is gonna hit their goals and meet the certification.

Mark: That's what they're paying for. And so the first thing is just to be just very open in that communication as much as you p- as much as you possibly can. And I've felt that has worked in really well on, on the construction end, and I know it'll service us on the consulting end because you d- you don't know what you don't know, and every project is different. Even if it's the same, particularly in Passive House, even if the it was the same exact building, the same exact design with the same exact details, if you're moving it across the street, it has a different orientation. It is a comp- there's going to be some things that you need to address that, th- that there's n- that are very specific to that site.

Mark: That's the, that's a lot of that difficulty in, in Passive House and some of the difficulty that I think people a hard time getting their head around, which is this house down the street met Passive House, and it's, it's about the same size as my house, and it's got the same basic s- specifications to it." But it's not the f- it's not fully the same design. It's, it's- A different orientation. It has a s- different shading components that it has to deal with. It makes it a completely different project. And I think this is also the thing. So I think that this is... While I think this is really good and it provides us really specific information to help that project be as performative as it wants to be, I think it also makes it difficult for people to get their head around fact that they have to pay a certain amount of money for this consultant to tell them things that they feel should be more intuitive. And I think you get that from a builder. And I think builders and architects who aren't familiar with Passive House don't fully grasp that, that either, right? That the,

Mark: That this is the detail that worked in this project won't... It's a good place to start, but we might have to re- address it slightly different,

James: Yeah.

Mark: that doesn't necessarily follow through with the mindset that you have as a builder or as an architect, which is I'm gonna take, as an architect, I'm gonna take this library of details that I have, and I'm gonna find, figure out which ones work for this project and plug it in, and I won't have to tweak it.

Mark: The way the window's installed. May need to be installed slightly different on this project. As a builder, you want in, in, particularly in custom homes you're used to the fact that certain things are gonna be different and certain things that are gonna be new that you've never addressed, but you wanna limit as many of those things as possible.

Mark: So you don't want to have a different de- window installed detail from to house or a different level of insulation that you have to do on the foundations. We, and maybe I'm just speaking to the human conditions in

James: Yeah.

Mark: want consistency and we

James: Yep.

James: Cookie cutters as much as possible.

Mark: We,

James: Yeah.

Mark: comfort in knowing something, right?

James: yeah.

Mark: and so that's where, as a consultant, it's we have conversations about how we can make it more cost-effective as a consultant and how we can be more efficient in delivering the product, and there's certain things that we can do, but the bottom line is you're dealing with a new, completely new set of parameters every time you get a new project.

Mark: So it's very difficult to set up, con- consistency on one level. You can... Consistency in the way you do things, consistency in the way you communicate, consistency in the way you deliver your product, that's one thing. but just because this 3,000 square foot cost X amount of dollars doesn't necessarily mean this next one is, because you have the variabilities of your team, the variabilities of the pr- the product that you're working on at hand.

Mark: You have variabilities in maybe a municipality you're working with. All of these other things that can contribute to more time needed to be spent by you as the consultant, which of course raises costs,

James: And so tying it back to the client's objectives, I think that's where you started down this road, and I think that,

Mark: Yeah.

James: speaks to that, like you're not selling passive house. You're figuring out what the person actually wants from their home and then, like finding the way to get to that and that's what you use as your source.

James: Is that

Mark: We-- absolutely, architects that do that a lot, right? Particularly a cust- any architect they're gonna sit down, whether it's a, whether it's a custom home client or whether it's a production home builder, they're gonna sit down and they're gonna, they're gonna discuss all the parameters that go into that design that make that design work, either as a commodity in a production home situation or as a unique building for a custom home client or build-- or just custom building client, let's say. And they're gonna ask all these questions about usability and comfortability i-in terms of... A-and layout and maybe they have a view and they, they wanna accentuate that view or maybe they have, excellent landscaping around it or something like that. And so they want the ability to fold that into the design. As a consultant, we need to-- I feel like we need to be asking similar questions in

James: Right.

Mark: and the the performance of-- the end performance of the product, right? Particularly if you're working on a project that's not necessarily going for certification. But even if you're, they are going c- for certification, there, there's still gonna be things that a client kinda latches onto as being more important to them than other things that are than other aspects, right?

Mark: Offer. Heating and cooling's a good one. Are we heating with forced-air? Are we heating with,

Mark: Doing baseboard heating? What are the aesthetics of the, that heating system, and how does that look within the house?

Mark: And you've got to coordinate that with the architect. And so it's, it's-- a-and the homeowner itself. And we... So it's really important, I feel like as a consultant to get at the heart of what they're, of what clients are wanting out of their product. Because

James: find... Oh, sorry.

Mark: Yeah, I'm sorry. I was just gonna say, because they-- everybody has a slightly different understanding of what a passive house is gonna deliver for them, right?

James: Yeah, I was gonna go back to the before conversation. Like when you're in it, it's different than when they're considering hiring you and that kind-- the w- I imagine the promise Can be along the lines of getting you this home that you want. Not a technically good building, but the building that you'll live in that you'll love.

James: Do you find that or...?

Mark: Yeah, and that, that's a little bit of a a crossover, on the Venn diagram of how we would ap-approach things, right? We want to be able to provide verifiable data, right?

Mark: Does that verifiable data translate into what a customer wants? There are customers and let's face it, in the

James: Right.

Mark: house, they have probably done a lot of research about what that means and they have some general understanding of that, right?

James: Right.

Mark: going into it. But there-- it makes no sense for us to sit there and say we're gonna we're gonna help you understand, what the heating demand for each room is, and we're gonna meet it by using this equipment, and we are going-- and that's gonna be really excellent for you." That doesn't mean anything to anybody,

James: Yeah.

Mark: What it-- at the end of the day, what they wanna know is they wanna know that their room upstairs on the northeast corner of the building is gonna be the same or close to the same temperature as a building on the opposite as the room on the opposite end of the building. And the re- why is that? Because They don't wanna feel like they need a sweater in this room and walk in and peel that sweater off into another room, right? And as I was just at a conference recently, and one of the speakers was like, these days everybody wants to walk around in their house in their underwear and feel comfortable," right?

Mark: Nobody wants to put a sweater on in their house necessarily. so how do we take that verifiable data that's important for the architect and the builder to know so that they know the metrics that they're looking to hit, then how do we c- how do we communicate that with the homeowner? some of that come, that-- Some of that depends on the team, right?

James: Right.

Mark: a builder that's built these projects. They can participate in that conversation, and they can talk about what that means. Because ultimately we're a consultant to the architect and to the builder more than we are a consultant to a homeowner, right?

Mark: So our conversations with homeowners is just dependent upon the

James: Yep. That makes sense

Mark: we can-- I have thoughts about how we communicate that, but I-- hopefully that gets communicated through an architect or a builder on our end so we

James: So

James: Your marketing Passive House is to architects and builders who need a, an assist. You're-- Like the-- Instead of you getting certification, architect or builder, hire us and we'll be like an add-on to your team that lets you meet this higher performance standard. Is that kind of...?

Mark: Yeah. I, I-- For sure. For sure. There are definitely architects out quite a few architects out there that are consultants or designers, as the designation from PHI,

Mark: And they will go ahead and they will do that work. They're more than happy to go through, do all the modeling work, do all that stuff.

James: Right.

Mark: there's a lot of work involved in that, and they have other they have other things that they need to address and for a project that go beyond the modeling that's necessary for Passive House or to to understand the performance criteria of the building that they're designing. So yeah, that's what we do is we go to-- We either go to them or we go to architects who traditionally they're just doing whatever they're being asked to do they need to do in order to get a permit, right? Whether that's really, the most recent code, whether there's an addended addended code, for through that particular municipality So for us, really what we're trying to do is we're trying to show the archit- the architects in particular, architects and developers in particular, how we can take Passive House and we can deliver the same information, in fact, more data that will help them get that permit, right? 'Cause one of the things that we run into and I think a lot of people run into, is that a municipality is used to getting data in a certain way let's say out of a manual J, D, or an S for their heating and cooling system or an ERI report for which used to be called a HERS report, which is basically just a, an audit of the house in terms of its energy performance potential. And so we've run into situations where yeah, we're gonna do this Passive House, but we still need an ERI report,

Mark: We still need manual J, D, and S. And one of the things that confident of is that all that data, with the exception of the duct layout design represented by the manual D, all that data is in the PHPP, and it's now our responsibility to extract that data out of the PHPP in a form that is acceptable by the municipality to to basically take a prescriptive path towards permitting and set aside the ERI and the manual J and the manual S. That's attractive to architects because we're doing a lot, we're doing a lot of that footwork. Basically, as... The way I see it, and I saw it as a, this way as a builder too, a consultant, it's our job to identify the hurdles that's keeping people from looking to advance their projects, whether it's all the way to certification or whether it's some incremental step between code and certification.

James: Right.

Mark: the hurdles to get there, and whether that's through communication with municipalities, presenting our data in a certain way or, a-and communicating in a certain way we, our goal is to identify it and then to have a solution for it. And if we haven't identified it and we identify it at a later date, let's come to the table w-with some solutions.

Mark: Just don't identify the issue.

Mark: On builders, that's-- So with architects, we've identified this whole permitting thing, right?

James: Right.

Mark: So that's one hurdle that we're looking to solve. For

James: Yeah.

Mark: the other thing that, th-the thing is, it's like I don't have a subcontractor who k- who knows these materials.

Mark: I don't h-have a subcontractor who's built a double stud wall before." And so we're like okay, these are the steps that we're, th-that we feel are important to take in order for you to get your team acclimated to this form of construction."

Mark: We'll go out and we'll... Whatever they ask us to do, right?

Mark: We'll go out there and we'll help them. Now, this help them interpret a detail because they may not be completely familiar with the deta- the detail.

James: Right.

Mark: And then also show them, a proper way to install that material. Or if we d- and there's cases that we may not know, bri- make sure that we get the material rep whomever out there to show them.

Mark: So it's it's all about facilitating

James: yeah.

Mark: that's been our goal as a company, really, is to facilitate from design to the end product and making sure that what was designed is actually there at the end of the at the end of the day.

James: Nice.

Mark: It's just experience for me, w- performance building or not, as a builder, I e- I experienced many times where I had subcontractors where I'd be looking at the plans and I'd be like why did you do it this way?" And they-- And I said, "It's on the plans this way, and I'm sorry, you're going to have to redo it because the plans say to do it this way."

James: Right.

Mark: In our general construction world, this disconnect between drawings as a suggestion and drawings as a, as a a-as an instruction.

Mark: Yeah, exactly.

James: Interesting. I like this. I-- So you're making high performance easy for those two, or easy-easier,

Mark: yeah,

James: like easier. Yeah.

Mark: and in a certain way, in a certain way, at least on the on the ver-- on the impli-implementation side of things, we're kinda hoping that we don't have to do that in the future. hoping that we can touch enough builders and work and subcontractors and and architects so that- we get a set of plans and we're like, "Yeah, this is gonna work.

Mark: We kn- w-we know this, you understand this. Oh, you don't

James: Right.

Mark: That's the goal, is to build out a workforce f- a number of different levels that has enough familiarity with this type of design and construction that they don't need they don't need that extra assistance in the field.

James: Nice. So you're like, there's an educational component and a a capabilities, like an upskilling across the board

Mark: Yeah, and

James: to what you're doing.

Mark: And I have to say, I feel like, there... you hear your horror stories of the, as I mentioned, of those guys looking at plans as a suggestion as opposed to an instruction, that kind of thing, and just doing whatever they feel like was, been worked for them in the past, let's say.

James: Right.

Mark: their inspections or d- or whatever. For the most part, I th- I think that people are, who are i-in the trades as a subcontractor or general contractors or builders, design build teams, whatever, if they're in it for a career long haul, they want to do better. They want to know... And they also know, wanna know why too, right? They just

James: Yeah.

Mark: don't touch that over there. Don't touch that air barrier over there, and don't put a slit in it." It's

James: Right.

Mark: They wanna understa- they want to understand what they're putting together out there. They, they don't wanna be a blind, a blind man in a corner over here just doing this thing, and w-without any, w-without any sort of understanding of what the importance of it is.

Mark: And so I think they're receptive. I just think they just... The conversation just needs to be had

James: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

James: Yeah, it feels-- I feel I've come across this multiple times now where one of the kind of great angles for marketing passive house to people working is just that pride of craft and proof that you did the thing that you wanted to do. It's really nice when you can get a result.

James: That's why gamifying things work so well, right? To--

Mark: Yeah.

James: just... Then you're-- it's a whole different world where you can see a result and see if you can get it better next time, and yeah.

Mark: So- I think when we-- and I were talking and we were putting together Point Six, I think the thing that we just saw this the pieces were out there, they d- they just weren't connected. And so really, even though, yes, we produce a specific product as a consultant where we will deliver a PHPP and we will deliver the results of that PHPP, or we'll deliver a HVAC design, there's very specific things that we're doing. But ultimately, what we see ourselves as are, is making the connections to all these other things to make it more, to make it more holistic. We are dealing with

Mark: That has a number of disparate parts to it, and a number of disparate people that have to put those parts together. And the more we can make-- view it holistically and interconnect all those parts, I think the better the end product is gonna be.

James: Nice. I like that. That's the glue that binds. The non-toxic glue that binds.

Mark: Yeah. Exactly.

James: Look, this has been absolutely great. I'm conscious of the time, but before we go, where can people find out more about you online?

Mark: So our website's pointsix.pro. .Com was taken

James: out?

Mark: but s- Oh, yeah, sorry. I always forget about that 'cause I'm so used to visualizing it. It's point is po- is spelt out and then the number six and .pro.

James: Nice.

Mark: and yeah, we have a whole list of our services there and a little bit about who we are. Of course, we have Instagram that gets posted to about once every six months or so.

James: Follow you for semi-regular updates.

Mark: yeah. And yeah, w- you know we're pretty involved in a lot of l- local kinda trade groups. Colorado Green Building Guild pretty involved in Reimagine Building Collective, and I'm actually also the outside coordinator for the Passive House Rocky Mountain chapter of the Passive House Network. So those things can-- w- people can reach out in a number of different ways there however they see fit. If they wanna present on Passive House Rocky Mountains, reach out to me.

James: Okay.

Mark: we can talk,

James: excellent. I'll link to all of those. Thanks so much for joining me today.

Mark: Yeah. Thank you.

James: You've been listening to "Marketing Passive House." I'm James Turner, and I hope you'll join me again next time.