31 - Josh Salinger - Birdsmouth Design-Build
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James: Hello, and welcome to "Marketing Passive House," the podcast where we hear from architects, designers, builders, suppliers, owners, and other experts in the passive house and high-performance building space. We'll be talking about what's working and what's needed when it comes to marketing buildings that meet or aspire to the passive house standard. I'm your host, James Turner, and today I'm joined by Josh Salinger, founder and CEO of Birdsmouth Design-Build. Josh, welcome to the show.

Josh: Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

James: Likewise. So before we get into it, and for people who are just meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you started on your passive house journey?

Josh: Sure. My main gig is that I am the founder and CEO of Birdsmouth Design-Build, and we do custom residential new homes ADUs, and also some retrofits, remodels, that kind of thing. We focus our new construction on passive buildings, and we've been doing that with certifying them through Phius for the past 14 years or so.

Josh: So that's my main gig. So we have architects and builders on staff. We're-- So we're a true Design-Build company and kind of leveraging that integrated Design-Build process. And beyond that, I also am a contributing author to Fine Homebuilding magazine, so I often write articles. I'm currently writing one about self-adhered membranes that'll be showing up later this summer.

James: Nice.

Josh: and oh, and we're talking about writing one about is there a style, a passive house style that... And I thought that would be interesting to show up in, in that magazine. So yeah I'll do talks and video work and stuff with them. Other things I do is I am a instructor for the Phius Certified Passive House Builder accreditation course.

Josh: I was just teaching that this past couple... two days ago. So I do a bunch of work with Phius. They contract me to teach that course. And also teach a Sustainable Homes Professional course, which is a regional building nonprofit called Earth Advantage that puts on this educational course for architects, builders here in the Pacific Northwest.

Josh: And lastly, I am a expert member on Green Building Advisor. So if anyone ever has questions about how to do something right with buildings this is the place to go figure it out. And the really gnarly questions that end up having big chats and discussions, oftentimes I'll get brought in to kinda write an article and answer those and be the expert member voice on that, which is a lot of fun because usually those are hard to answer questions.

Josh: And I don't always have the answers, but it's a lot of fun to get into the weeds and do the research and try to get my head around it. So anyways yeah, those are kinda all of the irons I have in the fire.

James: Nice. That's a lot of irons.

Josh: It's a lot of irons, yeah. But it works out. I am pretty militant about keeping, a 40-hour workweek.

Josh: I got a couple of kids, and so I always leave the evenings and weekends those are kinda sacrosanct, so I don't mess around with those too much.

James: Nice. Very important. So how did you first get into passive house? When-- Do you remember the first time you heard about it and, and what like, you over?

Josh: Yeah I do. And to back up a little bit I went to college in Wisconsin, at University of Wisconsin-Madison, and I got a degree in biological conservation and ecology. So I always had an ethos around sustainability. And growing up, my dad had a stressful white-collar job, and he would always be working on our house to blow off steam, and so as a kid, it was always fun to be around Dad while he was building things. And luckily, in my later years, I was able to kinda combine those two things, my love of craft and construction and the tangibility of building things with my ethos around sustainability, and started this company Birdsmouth, in 2008.

Josh: And right shortly there, right after I founded it, we started doing green building, which I'm not a huge fan of that term anymore, but at the time that was the, the go-to term. And so we were doing things like low-VOC finishes and reclaimed woods and all this, which was important stuff and still is.

Josh: But always felt like there was more to it somehow. And the city of Portland where I'm located, Portland, Oregon had a green building tour. And on this tour, there was a project, a very early passive house done by a guy named Rob Hawthorne. And I walked into this house, and here was something that just...

Josh: it just blew my mind and opened up possibilities because it was computer-modeled and it was performance-based. You had to-- You could build it however you want, but you had to prove that it met these metrics, and it was all based in science. And so it kinda took my background in, ecology and conservation and the, and my bachelor's degree in science, and put it together with my love of craft and my ethos around sustainability, and it just was like, oh my God, this just made endless sense to my head.

Josh: And from that point forward I really never looked back. I ended up just reaching out to whomever I could in the industry, going to whatever event might be happening, tours Digging into every book and article I could possibly find and really just kinda talking incessantly about it probably to my family's and friends' chagrin.

Josh: But eventually that led to our first passive light, it was a zero energy home back in 2012 or so, and then we did our first certified passive house in 2014. '13, '14, right around there. And since then just never really looked back. It just has always made a lot of sense to me.

Josh: I'm a big fan of things that make sense.

James: Yes, Passivhaus seems to be a sort of a ba-- a safe harbor for people who like things to make sense. And I do like how they all the different goals all seem to... They all line up,

Josh: Yeah, that, I'm grateful for that. I was, yeah, as one of the lucky ones that, it turned out that I could take all those, disparate interests and turn them into a career that I feel like I'm actually doing good and leaving something positive in my wake,

James: nice. on topic, but maybe off topic, but I'm curious, what's the story behind the name Birdsmouth?

Josh: Oh so I was-- I got married in 2000 and, let's see, early 2008-ish. I should know this. And anyways I was building an outdoor dojo-style building called an Azumaya, and it was in a friend's backyard. He had this big property. And we were gonna get married underneath it. So it was all this gorgeous cedar, and it had all of these exposed bird's mouths.

Josh: And so that's a carpentry term, and that's where the wall meets the roof rafter. You cut a little notch, and that notch is called the bird's mouth joint. And so I was cutting hundreds of these things, and they all had to be perfect 'cause they're all visible. And so I, for a couple of weeks, I'd come home after work and I'd be like, "Oh, I'm cutting bird's mouths all day."

Josh: And my wife just kinda latched onto that term. And so anyways, fast-forward, I'm looking to start a business and trying to figure out what to name the thing, and she just popped off. She was like, "Bird's Mouth." And I'm like, "Oh, I like that." Thought how nice it would be to have a logo with a bird, building a nest.

Josh: I'm like, "What could be better than that?" And the dual entendre with the carpentry terms it worked out. Yeah.

James: Awesome.

Josh: it came to be.

James: Thanks for sharing that. And I didn't know the term. This is part of my competence of ignorance.

Josh: Knows the term and you don't have to, it just kinda stand, hopefully stands on its own,

James: nice. It put me in mind of, I think bird's-eye maple is like

Josh: yes, that's a thing

James: or a look that, yeah

Josh: Yeah. It's also a thing that we get a lot of too, where people will be like, "Oh, you should call it Bird's Eye." And I'm like, "Oh, it's bird's mouth, not eye," which is funny 'cause birds have beaks, and bird's beak would've been strange.

James: True.

Josh: Yeah.

James: 'Cause it's all about getting back to the marketing, right?

Josh: Right.

James: so for all the-- for you, all of these things line up, which makes it an easy sell. Have you found some easy ways to put that e- enthusiasm into conversations with people and bring them into thinking like you do?

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that it's evolved over time. So when I first got into, the passive building ecosystem, it was all about energy conservation. We'd be talking about how many-- what's your heat load and how many BTUs per square foot are you allowed in your particular climate zone?

Josh: And, how could you meet that with an ERV that has a sensible heat recovery efficiency of 84%? And I'd be yammering on about all this stuff to my clients, just "You guys, this is amazing. We can save all these BTUs." And I, I had one client early on come to me and say we really like what you're doing and everything, but it just feels a little Germanic," was their word.

Josh: And what it made me realize was like, oh, not everyone is super stoked about BTUs, right? From there, it's evolved over the years for sure. And for a long time we, we pivoted to what is still the mission of our company, but we haven't really been putting it as front and center lately, is the mission of our company is addressing climate change through the built environment.

Josh: And that's where-- that's how we enter into what it is that we do and the outcomes that we wanna see at our company. But the... What I've learned over time is what anyone wants from a building, like if you really zoom out, is is five things, right? So what you need to have with a building is something that's durable.

Josh: You need to have a building that's gonna last a really long time, and that's the most important thing, because if you don't build something that's durable and deals with moisture and rot and things like that, it can lead to biogenic growth, molds and bacterias and yeasts and things like that, that can lead to bad health outcomes, right?

Josh: And people live and work in buildings, and what's most important is people. And so if we want to, create a healthy environment for people to live and work and go to school and all these things, we need to make sure that our buildings are durable first and foremost. And that's where the building science comes in to make sure that we're in craft and everything, that quality to make sure that we're building things that are durable so that we're creating healthy homes for people.

Josh: From there, you wanna make sure that your home is resilient. You need to be able to make sure that you have a home that if you're in seismic zones can withstand that movement. If you're in flood zones that can take the occasional flood. If more recently, things like wildfire smoke, you need to be able to provide that indoor air quality, filter that.

Josh: Things with the pandemic and viruses and all all that stuff, indoor air quality became, very important. So those are all resiliency things. Along with we, being here on the West Coast, we deal a lot with wildfire and building in the wild and urban interface. And so being able to build a house that is resilient to those, externalities needs to be important, right?

Josh: Needs to be included in there. So I put that as number three. And then below that comfort. People want to live in places that aren't uncomfortable. They... And that could be everything from glare and light to, temperature and thermal comfort to a sense of security being in a house, to sound and noise, things like that.

Josh: And if if you're uncomfortable, what do you do? You walk over to the little thing on the wall and you throttle it up or down depending on what it is, and that is affecting your energy usage, right? So you have to make things comfortable before the last one, which is energy efficiency. And the energy efficiency thing is also an economic play too, right?

Josh: Because this can be a way for folks to be able to spend less money over time on maintenance and obviously those operational costs of building. So what we've learned with our marketing is to turn things upside down, whereas it used to be the primary focus was that energy efficiency. But now I've learned that we turn it all upside down and we talk about durability, quality, and best practices first and foremost because I know that everything falls from there.

Josh: Because if you build, design and build and commission a building so that it is durable, it's going to be healthy, it's going to be resilient It's going to be comfort- comfortable. And if you do all of those things, you get this happy little accident, which is that energy efficiency. And human-- the human animal responds to any of those things, whether that's best practice, craft, whether it's comfort, whether it's sound, whether it's health, whether it's building in the, the wildfire zones or whatever it is.

Josh: You can filter people into whatever, you can Plinko them into whatever column they need to go, and it still ends up being at energy efficiency ultimately. So we've really moved our emphasis with our marketing and trying to reach people to those things because humans respond to stories and paradigms, and we need to...

Josh: this is as old as time, right? It's culture, it's religion, it's all of these things that make humans cooperate over distance and time towards common goals is through these stories and these paradigms. And you have to be able to tell something that's compelling that meets that person where they're at, and beating them over the head with latent recovery and, relative humidity spikes and, mixed humid climates is probably not the most compelling thing to most people.

James: Brilliant. I'm-- I really like that, like that you laid it all out ending with the one that kinda seems like the, I won't say obvious, but obvious, marketing. W- this will save you money. People like saving money. It's like this

Josh: the money thing is

James: toward it.

Josh: Yeah. I... Even that is clearly important, if not the most important, right? That's something that everyone has a budget, right? But, economics and money is value, right? And there's other things that hold value besides money, right? And that could be time.

Josh: It could be your your kids have... are sensitive, they have allergies, sensitive to pollens and stuff like that. Maybe that is worth spending money on to create a building that can keep those, pollen grains to the outside and fresh and clean on the inside, right? Whatever it is, whoever you meet, once you get to know them, you can figure out what holds value for them.

Josh: And if it's purely just economics and they really truly don't care about having a low-maintenance durable building or something that's not unhealthy or... then maybe people are not your client. But even those people you can get into it from that economics conversation also

James: Yeah.

Josh: We have ways to talk about it from an economic standpoint, if that's truly the number one and only thing.

Josh: But I have yet to find anyone that's really the case once you really get to know people.

James: Durability, I think I like that too, that's the big tent that everything under. And it, it-- When you were saying that, I was thinking of early humans building shelters. The person that built the shelter that lasted a month one rainfall

Josh: Yeah.

James: would be

Josh: Like I said, you go-- you really need to distill what the heck our building's doing for us, right? And I think the ultimate thing is keeping the rain off of our head and keeping us warm enough not to freeze to death out there, whatever it is, right?

James: Yeah.

Josh: That hasn't changed.

James: No.

Josh: so you know that, that is important.

Josh: And, durability is a strange term to come at someone with. It's what does that mean? Like durability. I want a durable home, that's not necessarily why I, started off on this adventure, and why I've called it Birdsmouth, so I think you-- we use a different term for it, which is really just...

Josh: Lately, I've been just saying best practices or been using the term quality.

Josh: Is a little bit lame because it's everyone's the highest quality used car salesman out there, right? It's, But it's also true that, if you really do employ best practices in your design, all the way from like the setting of the site or the acknowledgement of what houses or, noise or context that's around you, and you use best practices in acknowledging those things and folding that into your design, along with using an energy model, because how else are you gonna know if you add another half inch of insulation, is that gonna save you money or not?

Josh: Where is that intersection between adding that extra inch of insulation and saving any money to make it worthwhile? The only way you can know that is energy modeling that so that you can get your clients that best value and allow that house to remain very durable and all the things, right? And so that is best practice.

Josh: And then through building, there's, all of the old school craft that humans have learned over time to employ that into our buildings is best practice. Plus all of the, tried and true and vetted building science that's been kicked off for the last 70 years or so to, im- to fold that into the mix too is best practice.

Josh: And then when the building's done, to commission it to make sure that you're not creating a, an infiltration or exfiltration of moist air that could lead to, building, issues that is best practice. And so if you just do the right thing all the way through, you end up with passive building.

Josh: You end up with something that uses very little energy and delivers all of those things. And so that just goes back to it makes sense, right? And it's just best practice and it's just quality. If you truly, distill, zoom out or distill what that means in the context of buildings, it's just best practices.

James: I guess is why there's no look, going back to a topic

Josh: Yep. Yeah.

James: Right.

James: There's no look of what a passive house is because that's im-immaterial. You can make it look however

Josh: That's exactly right. You can, yeah. It's interesting there, I don't know if you can envision to describe this on a podcast, but the house that looks like a kid's drawing of house with a gable roof, no overhangs, and then it comes down, it's a rectangle, and then the eaves and the sides of the building are extended out a little bit.

Josh: A very common vernacular that you see with, passive buildings. And

Josh: A something that passive buildings must employ, or do they have a particular, look or something like that.

Josh: I I don't think they do. Our firm has produced a lot of buildings that look very different from one another and they're all, certified passive buildings.

James: Yeah, I-- in early episode of the podcast, I talked to Graham Irwin, and

Josh: oh, yeah.

James: about this too. And the only thing that, that, you know, ties-- that binds them all together is this tiny little plaque if they're certified,

Josh: Yeah.

James: Hard to spot,

Josh: If you even have it right, yeah. Totally.

James: like people walking by the street won't be like, "Oh, I keep seeing this type of building."

Josh: Yep. Totally. Yeah. Graham and Tessa, who's also been on your podcast did a podcast with Kristof Irwin on his Building Science podcast about this topic too. I intend to reach out to both of them as I endeavor into this project around this particular article and pick their brains,

James: awesome. Yeah, it's the, it's the it's the on-the-street marketing. It's it's the billboard. or it could be. Or,

Josh: it could be. Yeah, but you gotta be careful about it too. You don't want to... one of the things I wrote an article in Fine Homebuilding maybe about two or three years ago called "Are You Stuck in," Oh, what did I call it? Are you stuck in the early 2000s passive house? Or the I'm not, I don't remember the name of my own article.

Josh: But, the idea was, is like when passive building first hit North America, one of the early passive buildings was the Bemidji Passivhaus in northern Minnesota that was called The Eco House or something like that. But this thing had 16 inches of EPS foam underneath it, and the walls were, I think, equally as thick and, and had ver- you know...

Josh: That one actually had decent glazing, but a lot of the early passive buildings had really small windows, these obnoxiously thick, one of the early passive buildings here in Portland, Oregon, and we're in a pretty Goldilocks kind of climate here, not too hot, not too cold had I think 12 inches, 14 inches of EPS underneath it.

Josh: And the last I don't know, three or four passive buildings that we've done here have had three, four inches or something like that. So when passive building first hit the scene, it was really exciting, and I think quickly people were like, "That's bananas." "Why would you put 16 inches of foam under it?

Josh: And I like windows, and why do they all have to be these boxes?" And I think a lot of people found it really compelling and were like, "That's just maybe not for me," and then they just got stuck there. And passive building has evolved so much in the past 15, 16 years from those early, 2010s first examples of passive buildings here in North America that I think a lot of people kinda put it in a box and filed it away and went that's interesting, but I want to be able to have lots of glazing and beautiful homes that look like what I want them to look like."

Josh: And I wrote an article being like, "Hey, everybody," this, that, that was Passive House 2.0. The original passive building was kinda like the very early Canadian projects that were done.

James: Yep.

Josh: and now we're on Passive House 3.0, where we really can design whatever you want to deliver those five things that every house and every person wants. And so I was trying to shake people out of that idea that a passive buildings have a look, or that they have to have 16 inches of foam underneath or who knows what. I could tell a story about a Passivhaus retrofit we just got done with where we, they had 14 inches of foam underneath it, but, we were able-- It was in the basement. They had a basement. We were able to say, "Hey, we could still meet the current Passivhaus standard if we get rid of one of these seven-inch layers of foam." And so we were able to get them seven inches more head height in their basement Still keep the passive building thing.

Josh: And then we took that foam and we're putting it into a new passive building that we're starting here. Just signed a contract this week.

James: Nice.

Josh: so maybe that's what we can do with those early versions of Passive House. We'll give more head height and we'll recycle that foam into a new project.

James: Perfect. That is a great solution. The term that came to mind when you were describing that was like th- the the orthopedic shoes of buildings at, at-- in the early days,

Josh: Yeah. Wear these shoes. These things are sexy, right? Yeah.

James: Whereas now you can have shoes that do the good things but also look good.

Josh: Yeah. Passive shoes. Yeah. There's a marketing thing for

James: Yep.

Josh: you.

James: Yeah. Okay, inter-- I look forward to seeing what you come up with in the article, 'cause I could see there, I could... So what I was trying to say about the billboard thing is, on the other hand, if there was a look and it looked cool, it could be a good way to have people I wish I, I want a house like..." 'Cause like at some level, people walking down the street see things that they like and they're like, what? I kinda wanna have that." And

Josh: Yeah. I, as I'm hearing you say that, I'm thinking of, I-- that put something in my mind, and I'm sure as you were thinking that it put something in your mind and everyone else, and I bet you if we were to draw what was in our minds, they'd probably look very different. And so anytime you pick one thing like this is a Passive House look, it's probably gonna put off a bunch of people because everyone has different, ideas of what makes a home or a building beautiful, right?

Josh: And so to a certain extent, I don't know if that's super strategic from a marketing perspective. Maybe it is for a certain market, because you could say this about any building. "Hey I'm a home builder. I'm a architect," we do mid-century modern, and a lot of people love that, myself included.

Josh: It's awesome, but it's not for everybody. Whereas like passive building yeah, we could do a mid-century modern passive building, absolutely. You wanna do a gingerbread Victorian? Okay. We can do that too,

James: yeah.

Josh: so maybe that makes the marketing a little more difficult or maybe it makes it better.

Josh: Just like you-- whatever you want, we can do that.

James: I suppose the end game of passive house is just wide adoption and y- like you said, it's best practices. So really, at some point, we just all need to update our minds to "Okay, we've learned all these things. This is how we do it now."

Josh: Yeah. What I've been seeing in the market is as, energy codes, especially if we like pick on something like Massachusetts with their stretch code where currently buildings over 12,000 square feet in those jurisdictions that have adopted that stretch code have to have passive building y- you know, as their, code minimum.

Josh: And what we're seeing is that, again, it's just best practice. People are starting to bring all of this design energy thinking earlier into their design and producing these buildings for, cost parity or just a little bit more than the legacy buildings that they had previously been doing. And if you talk to these folks, once you learn how to do it right, you can't-- and if you're a reasonable human, you can't do it wrong anymore.

Josh: And so same with energy codes. As you look at what's been happening with the energy code, it's all converging at some point in the future to something that looks just like passive building. And that- that's just where the logical end of where this goes. Now that's from an energy code perspective and, the passive building crowd would say, "That's great.

Josh: That's part of what we do, the energy thing." But, any ding-dong can build a zero energy building. Like you can nail some boards together in a shack and put a big enough solar array next to it that, guess what? It's zero energy. But is it durable? Is it gonna last? Is it comfortable? Is it gonna keep the pollen out?

Josh: Is it gonna, all that stuff. And that is what passive building does. And again, I go back to the energy's important, but, and a lot of people can build energy efficient buildings, but keep them from having issues. We are on our fourth we just finished about six months ago, our fourth building that was built with, in quotes, "passive building methodologies," but was not certified and done by folks that didn't quite know what they were doing.

Josh: And in all of these cases, we had to spend multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars on buildings that were less than 10 years old that were experiencing major rot and structural issues. And it boiled down to, in some cases, like just, a bad form that was executed shoddily that directed water into the walls.

Josh: And something that uses less energy has less ability to dry because we've lowered the energy usage of this building. And so even small water issues Can become bigger problems when you're lowering that energy inside the buildings. And so that's where, the ed- it's important not to just focus on energy efficiency.

Josh: We have to look at durability and craft and health and all these things, 'cause that's what's gonna truly be best practice. And I would rather not have to, pick up another one of these projects that's failing after 10 years and spend hundreds of thousand dollars of these poor clients that thought they were moving into a, passive house methodology kind of thing.

Josh: But, having the education that's out, that is needed out there using best practices, having third-party certifications to make sure that these things are going together correctly, can create a building that is a 200-year or more building that uses very low energy. It-- this is the point, and it absolutely can be done.

Josh: And usually the things that, when we get back to why did those buildings fail is like someone, did a reverse lap or something like that. It's just shoddy workmanship. It's bad quality. It's not best practices. It's not that it's the passive house. It's the opposite, it's had they actually followed the passive house methodology and had best practices and quality, to repeat myself those things wouldn't have happened.

James: Interesting. And that makes a really strong case for certification as a built-in and balance.

Josh: Yeah. I think it's a good marketing.

James: just...

Josh: Yeah. Y- to use the used car dealer thing again, if I could go to some used car dealer on the outskirts of town, in some shady part of town, and he tells me I-- this is the best car, it's a cherry, it's gonna be nothing wrong with it okay.

Josh: But if it had the manufacturer's warranty that was completely, third party certified by that, I'd be like, "Okay." I don't know about you, but if there's an issue here, I know that there actually this has been vetted by a third party. And I think that can be a really good lever to help market this too, is that with that third party you're getting your expectation.

Josh: You're de-risking the, to who-- Michael Ingui uses that term. I think it's great, the de-risk your project through that third-party certification so that it makes sure that every... If there was-- we're all human, we make mistakes, but if that third party caught that, you fix it before you hand the building off to the owners and that's great, and that's a heck of a insurance policy.

Josh: In fact, one of the things we've been talking about at our company is we do a one-year warranty, very standard in, in the industry, and extending that potentially to 10 years, like a 10-year warranty for our buildings if you certify to Passive House and have third-party certification. Because we know that we are confident that house not only is gonna last 10 years without problems, but if you go through that third-party certification, the Passive House, methodology or building certification, that, yeah, no problem.

Josh: You've-- we have de-risked that building enough that we're willing to put a 10-year warranty on that thing. If anything goes wrong, on us kind of thing.

James: Cool. So I hope you do it. I think

James: that's awesome.

Josh: we're, very close to that. We've got it cra- it's on my, one of my tabs that's open right now. We're crafting that, that warranty policy.

James: like a big deal. I-- does this apply... Now, I'm just thinking we've been talking a lot in terms of the owner being or the buyer being the occupant, right? But then bringing that up into the next level where they're-- it's like a developer.

James: They-- I feel like they, they have a different set of motivations but that still fit within that same,

Josh: Yeah, I think de-risking is something that everyone wants, right? Whether it's the single-family custom, owner hires custom builder, architect kind of thing, all the way up to not just multifamily and dev- but developers and, institutional buildings. If a jurisdiction or a government or something like that is wanting to create an institutional building, they want that thing to last a very long time, and they want the risk out of there because it's their necks as elected officials that, you know.

Josh: And so to de-risk it is I think that cuts across all the different chains and links,

Josh: Through society.

James: This has been great. I'm conscious of time. Before we go, where is the best place people can go to find out more about you online or connect with you?

Josh: Certainly our website, birdsmouthpdx.com. You can check us out there. You can always head over to we have an Instagram page, birdsmouthpdx. I endeavor to keep that update, updated pretty good. So there's stuff there. Also you can always head over to finehomebuilding.com and I've got a lot of information up there, including a recent course that I created that you can download and take there.

Josh: Or head over to Green Building Advisor. I try to keep a pretty good footprint over there. Otherwise, around-- if you're in the Pacific Northwest we're often putting on tours or educational events, that kind of thing. And also through the Phius ecosystem. Head over to one of the Phius conferences, wherever that might be.

Josh: And then, take the Certified Passive House Builders course, and I recommend that for architects and builders and engineers. It's a way to be able to connect with all the work that we're doing.

James: Awesome. Okay, I'll link to all of those things. Sounds like almost anywhere on the internet you... we'll find you

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. That's my,

James: we look.

Josh: That's what I'm trying to do here. You can't escape me.

James: The omni,

James: the omnipresent. Awesome. Thanks so much for taking the time to chat with me today.

Josh: Yeah. Great conversation. Thanks for having me. This was fun.

James: Likewise. You've been listening to "Marketing Passive House." I'm James Turner, and I hope you'll join me again next time.