04 - Graham Irwin - Essential Habitat Architecture
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James: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Marketing Passivhaus, the podcast where we hear from architects, designers, builders, suppliers, owners, and other experts in the Passivhaus and high performance building space. We'll be talking about what's working and what's needed when it comes to marketing buildings that meet or aspire to the Passivhaus standard.

James: I'm your host, James Turner, and today I'm joined by Graham Irwin, principal at Essential Habitat Architecture, architecture for the Future of California. Graham, welcome to the show.

Graham: Thank you. Nice to be here.

James: And so before we get into it, and for people who are just meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you started on your Passivhaus journey?

Graham: Sure. Um, I, I run a design firm in Northern California, just a bit north of San Francisco, and we specialize in high performance homes it built to built, basically built to passive [00:01:00] standards. And my journey to this started while I was in the, just sort of by happenstance, was in the first training in the US for Passivhaus design in 2008.

James: Wow.

Graham: that's where this started for me. And since then I've been working to adapt. To, you know, adapt that approach to California's culture, climate, and, uh, building industry and to build uptake for it.

James: Wow. So you definitely have have seen it go from a, a germ of an idea to a flourishing thing then.

Graham: Well, a germ of an idea to several germs of an idea perhaps. I don't know if we're at, I don't know if we've reached the flourishing state yet, but I'm, I'm holding out. Hope and expectation of that.

James: Excellent. Well, I mean, that's my whole hope for this, uh, podcast is to just talk to as many people as possible, uh, about [00:02:00] ways that Passivhaus can be sort of spread. More broadly. So I guess a, a good place to start would be I, something I think I'm gonna do from now on is, is how would you fill out this sentence?

James: Passivhaus is blank.

Graham: Passivhaus is the, the future of California. The AR is architecture for the future of California. And, you know, to be, to be location specific around it. It's the EV of architecture.

James: Nice. Um, why? Okay, so adding that location specific, is there an answer to why it's the future of architecture in California specifically, other than that's where you are.

Graham: No, it's because it's where I am. I, I mean, but it, and I think that it can be generalized from that to everywhere.

James: Excellent. So just then, Passivhaus is the future of architecture type of thing. [00:03:00] Hmm.

Graham: Or it's architecture for the future, I would say. And there's sort of a kind of two meanings to that, right? It's a, it's an innovative approach, but it's also an approach that gives us a better chance of a livable future or the best chance of a livable future. Kind of got a double meaning in that, when I say for the future of California

James: I love that. Yeah, I, as I've grown up, I've kind of, maybe subconsciously, but I, I've watched and waited for the point where, what's right and what's the best, most efficient thing, kind of like to align. I dunno if that makes

Graham: Mm-hmm. Absolutely

James: I, I've, I really feel that with like, if you want the best house or if you want the most sustainable.

James: Sort of longer lasting comfort, low energy use house. It's the same [00:04:00] thing. You want the same house basically. That way I

Graham: I agree with you and I. I don't see, I don't see great design and high performance as separate things. I see them as components. Aspects of great design. Both of those things, you know, both architecturally and performance, both of those should be optimized

James: Now you've,

Graham: and some of the, go ahead.

James: oh no, please, you go ahead.

Graham: Oh, I was gonna say, some of the, you know, obviously people that are familiar with high performance and Passivhaus understand that there are. Architectural approaches and architectural aspects that lend themselves to better performance. So the high performance consideration does influence the architecture, the design,

James: Right.

Graham: and it's sort of, and for me it's been a, a path of trying to explore that and [00:05:00] not only come up with optimal performing designs, but also to give. An architectural expression to what I view as a, as an innovative approach to construction. I mean, every, you know, every architectural movement or style or piece of history has a, has kind of, you know, it's all in retrospect.

Graham: So we won't know, we won't know any of this until we're all gone probably. But it all, you know, all of these things coalesce around an expression of. Of what this is and it becomes identifiable

James: Hmm. I saw a post just recently by Bronwyn Berry with, with, with pictures of a house under development saying, can you spot the Passivhaus? Tells like the things that give it away.

Graham: I saw that as well. Yes.

James: And I think that's really,

Graham: and that was under, yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

James: it's just really interesting [00:06:00] that the aesthetic component is less. Maybe less identifiable, like people were taking different guesses, but they were very sort of technical guesses. But

Graham: Yes. And I think that, yeah, I think that was, you know, that was a, a look at the framing and the answer was that it, it's, you know, it was framed like what we call a monopoly house, right? The overhangs weren't on the building, and that's a very common approach. That we use for air sealing, you know, to, to not have to, to not have to seal leaks around every rafter tail penetration.

Graham: You basically frame the building without rafter tails wrap the whole thing. And then it looks like, you know, one of the monopoly pieces kind of houses. And then you add, you add the overhang afterwards and, uh, you know how that happens varies with design, but I. When I think of design, you know, what [00:07:00] aspects might be identifiable for high performance or Passivhaus.

Graham: I think of particularly in, in a sunny climate like where we are, that, that the shading, the shading mechanism is a dedicated and discreet thing. It's not, it's not just a, an artifact of how the roof was framed. So sort of if you think, if you think about that example where the overhang is not there as part of the structure per se, it's added on later for its distinct function. To me, I take that further and say, well, I can di you know, I can disconnect. I. Both disconnect and have freedom to add additional shading or specifically, you know, intentional shading devices to the building. And I think that's an important aspect of it. Again, particularly in places with, with a lot of [00:08:00] solar energy.

James: Mm. Right. Like it's not just a side benefit of the way we build houses type of thing. Like, oh, lucky you, there's some shade in the

Graham: Right. And when it's a side benefit, it, yeah. Yeah. And when it's a side benefit, it often doesn't work very well. Right. So if it, it's, you know, it's also like why are, why are, and maybe you don't do that here, but where you are, but like, why are all, why are all these walls two by four? Why are they three and a half inches thick?

Graham: You know, they're not that thickness for a thermal. Consideration, you know, I mean, the thermal consideration with that is after the fact, like, Hey, we've got a two by four wall. Why don't we put some insulation in it? Right. It wasn't, you know, it's for gravity and wind loads and things like that. It's not, it wasn't intended for optimal thermal performance, which is why we see thicker walls or more insulation for higher performance buildings.

Graham: And the same can be said for high performance [00:09:00] buildings with shading devices. Right? They're not, they're not just. Accidental, their intentional.

James: Yeah.

Graham: Again, I'm maybe getting deep into the architectural theory or whatever, but that I see that as one, one piece of how you would identify, you know, the post you were talking about was identifying a Passivhaus under construction.

Graham: I'm talking about how you would, uh, how you might, how we might come to identify these buildings after completion. And I, and one thing I guess I wanted to say about that, and you mentioned the thing is like there wasn't a clear, clear aesthetic attachment. I mean, I think, I feel like there should be for high performance.

Graham: I think it's, it's like and I, I, I mentioned EVs earlier. I, I've, when I think about marketing this stuff, I look at at cars a lot because I think there's a lot to be. [00:10:00] Learned from that, but it's, it's like the Toyota Prius, right? There's been, you know, love it or hate it. It's been a very successful car

James: Yep.

Graham: and it's, and it's very clear like anyone that sees one of those nos, you know, that that is a higher performance vehicle, let's say.

Graham: Right? Or at the time it was a very high performance vehicle, I think at the time. Honda had a, had a hybrid civic at, you know, that came out about the same time. It was about the same price and it was about the same performance and it didn't take off. And I, my theory is, is because it looked like every other Honda Civic and you know, like it or not, people wanna be able to fly that flag, right?

Graham: It's also why, why solar panels. Have much more appeal than maybe air sealing, you know, fixing the leaks in your building. You [00:11:00] can see those, right? They're, they're on your building. If, if you're somebody who's trying to demonstrate, you know, environmental concern or whatever, solar panels on your roof, you know, anyone that comes by can see that.

Graham: Can't, you know, unless they have an IR camera or some kind of leak detection, they're not seeing the aach H 50 of your building shell. Right. So, so, you know, I, I, I guess I, that's a, a long way of saying, I think that, that developing a language and expression of this, this innovative approach to design and construction is important.

Graham: And you know, that's something I think about all the time. And there are, again, there are certain things that are good practice with that or necessary practice with that, depending on, you know, climate and all that. But there are other things that can be just, I think somehow, yeah, just [00:12:00] imbued that it, that it's clear that this is coming from. A certain place and that there's an intention behind it and that it's an expression of what it is. Just like anything else, right? Just like in the past when steel or con, you know, reinforced concrete or whatever it might be, became, you know, more available and feasible and in construction, architectural styles arose from those, those technologies.

Graham: And it was, it was a reaction to new technology. It was a reaction against, you know, what had come before as something new and innovative. And I think the same thing needs to happen, or this is gonna wind up like the best kept secret of a Honda Civic hybrid,

James: Yeah. Yeah.

Graham: if you can't tell one from the other, you know, yes, you'll be able to tell [00:13:00] from seeing utility bills or.

Graham: The people inside having a really positive, and I'm not, I'm not belittling any of these things, right. The people inside having exceedingly high indoor air quality, comfort, quiet, and efficiency. And they can tell people about it, but it, you know, it doesn't grab the public's interests

James: Yep.

Graham: in the way that something visual does.

James: You have to keep inviting people over

Graham: in a lot of ways. Yes. Yeah. Right. And we

James: endless dinner parties.

Graham: that with, but yeah. Yes, yes. But it is that, you know, whatever that, that, that visual, that image that captures the spirit of the time, you know, that that would really be key to, I think, viral adoption of this, or at least part of it.

James: Absolutely. I, I suppose that there's something in that [00:14:00] about the, if you go the certification route and then people get the little certification plaque, I mean, it's, it, it's a

Graham: But it's also a little plaque,

James: Any, we'd only know it if you were looking for it. Right? So then it's preaching to

Graham: yes, and you know, and the reality is some, you know, there are other things about this like that. Some traditional styles of architecture don't lend themselves well to this approach. You know, we know, again, to get into some other technical details like the high performance windows and glaze doors that we use.

Graham: The glass is actually higher performing than the frame, and so you get better performance with bigger, fewer, bigger. Glazing units than you do with a lot of smaller ones, because smaller ones have more frame to glass percentage. Yeah. So it's like, you know, older homes. Well, and a lot of them are [00:15:00] derived from periods in time where they didn't even have glass that could span large openings.

Graham: Right. So they were kind of smaller by necessity originally. But you know, if you're reproducing that kinda style, yes. You can do a. Traditional, you know, colonial home with all the mountains and all these little broken up panes of glass all over it. And you can do that with higher performance, but you are compromising, you know, it's, it's gonna cost you more and it's gonna perform less well than something where there are fewer larger panes of glass.

Graham: And so that's another thing I think you see, you know, you see because it's, is a performance gain, but you also see it because it's an expression, you know, and it, and it also gives some drama and excitement and, you know, dare I say fun, right? Am I allowed to have fun? Are we allowed to have fun with while we're [00:16:00] saving the world?

Graham: I, you know, why not? So, so, you know having these dramatic openings, you know, the other thing about it is the, the, you know, often this is triple pane glass and it's heavy, and so they've. Developed really good hardware, you know, and so it's, I think it's fun. I think it's fun to have a great big giant lift slide door that glides open and close, you know, I mean, that, that appeals to me.

Graham: But it, you know, it also just people love, like, you know, the indoor outdoor connection. So

James: Yep.

Graham: I think that's a piece of it, you know, where if you're not, again, you, you need to be. You don't wanna build a glass box, you're gonna have all kinds of other problems as well. But you, I think that's another opportunity in design with this, that that can, can come to define it as something enviable, even if people don't understand all the nuance.

Graham: Right. And the, the fact is we [00:17:00] can't, we can't. Wait or expect that everyone is going to understand all the nuance. If we're going to have this be widespread, it's just not gonna happen. You know, I still, I get a lot of clients who come to me and in our first meeting, they say, you know, I just, I, I mean, they're mirroring my own personal journey, right?

Graham: I mean, they say, oh, I. You know, I was really concerned about having a better performing house, and I've been doing research for a year, you know, and then I found Passivhaus, and then I found you. And I love those folks, you know? I mean, they're my people. But that is a small segment of the populace, right?

Graham: Like how many people are gonna research how to have a better house for a year?

James: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm in the bottle, so it's hard to. Imagine not

Graham: am I right? I mean, right?

James: at the same

Graham: [00:18:00] Yes, yes,

James: how people make decisions and yeah. Do, do you find, so as that, that, one of my questions that I was very curious about is if the people coming to you are, are you now at the point where all of your inbound, you know, prospective clients are looking for Passivhaus?

James: Or do you still have to do some

Graham: No.

James: Okay.

Graham: Oh yeah, I don't, I mean, I do projects that aren't Passivhaus as well sometimes, depending on what they are. Because again, sometimes it's a client I really like, sometimes I talk people out of it because they come and say, well, I want, you know, I can, we, I really interested in this. But the reality is they're not doing and touching enough of their house to do it.

Graham: So it's sort of like, well, you can, we can do a stepwise approach if you like. You're, you're, you know, with the amount, with the scope of work that we're doing on your house, it's not, you know, we're not gonna get there. [00:19:00] Right. And, you know, that's the other thing to give, give people a sense. It's like you're, you know, if you want, if it's a new house, that's a different story.

Graham: I was referring to re you know, retrofits and remodels. Right. But if I'm talking about a, a remodel with someone, I say, you're going to. You're gonna completely re side or re-skin the outside of the building and you're gonna replace all your doors and windows for to start, right? And if that's not in the scope, then we're not, you know, we can get things better or we can take you down a path where you might get there eventually.

Graham: But that's not in the cards right now because this is a holistic and fairly significant. Alteration to a building. I mean, that's reality.

James: Yeah,

Graham: So again, your question was do I you were, I think you were asking me do I have to talk people into it or are they all coming raring to go?

James: I'm curious maybe not about whether you talk people into it, [00:20:00] but in the. Well, yeah. The first question was, is that all people come to you for now? No. So among the people that come to you unaware of Passivhaus, do you bring up to them and if you bring it up to them, what have you found that works that that clicks for some people?

James: If anything,

Graham: Yeah, I have not, I have never convinced someone to do it who wasn't already interested. And now, and it may be because by the time we're having a conversation, they've already come, you know, they've come across me some way or another. They've seen our website, which is, you know. Covered with narrative. An example of, of the advantages of this thing.

Graham: So they're not, you know, it's not like I bumped into someone in, in the street that wanted to build or remodel their house and I'm talking to 'em from scratch. I, you know, I will, I have had conversations with the people and they seem interested and, [00:21:00] you know, one of the things I will do is suggest that they visit.

Graham: One of our previous client's homes. We have some folks that are really obliging about that because you know, all the, another challenge too, this, all the things that you can say about this are, you know, there's something more palpable when you're actually in one of these buildings or homes that, that is beyond description, you know, and it's still, I am still. I've been doing this since 2008. Like I am still amazed when I go inside these houses and, you know, we're not, it's a really mild climate, so it's not like the, the high performance or Passivhauss I've been to in colder places or Germany or wherever, where it's like ma, a massive change necessarily from inside to outside temperature.

Graham: But there's also. A [00:22:00] quiet and a peace, you know, just a tranquility that I can just feel, and, you know, I can say that to you right now, and it sounds probably a lot of people sounds like a bunch of hocus pocus or marketing gimmick, but it, it's, it's profound, you know, and I tell people, like with our clients, we have, our clients choose quiet refrigerators because. Once all that outdoor noise is blocked out, you know, the human ear basically as background noise turns down, the human ear sense sort of, kind of turns its sensitivity up, or at least psychologically does. So that, so that the refrigerator, you know, when it's running, the sound that it's making becomes an important consideration.

Graham: Which, you know, I think is a pretty happy problem to have particularly if you've got. If you've got traffic noise that you've been suffering with or whatever. And you know, the other thing I need to point out to people, [00:23:00] because there be wrecks. The other way is, you know, if you wanna hear birds chirp, just open the window.

Graham: It's no problem. Right? A passive, passive us or high performance building is not sealed off from the outside.

James: Yep.

Graham: It, it can be sealed off from the outside when you want it to be. But we also design, we design with. With an, you know, an interaction toward the outside. I think of, I think of these buildings as being in balance with their environment as opposed to in conflict with it. I think

James: I like

Graham: conventional buildings are more in conflict, right? You put this building in and then you need a fossil fuel powered appliance to battle the environment outside to keep you. not comfortable, at least alive inside. Right. And, and I think that, I think that high performance or passive buildings are inherently [00:24:00] comfortable.

Graham: I mean, that's, that's where I start from with them.

James: Mm.

Graham: as being highly efficient buildings that happen to be comfortable. I think of them as inherently comfortable buildings. That are efficient because they're inherently comfortable. They don't need a lot of heating and cooling because you could make, you know, if your definition of a passive building is a building that that uses very little energy for heating and cooling.

Graham: You can take any building and put a parka on. In the winter, right? And you can turn the heat way down and there you go. There's a building with very low heating energy, right? But that's not, that's not what this is about. This is about something where you don't need that, that all, that heating energy and it's, it's just balanced and comfortable largely without it

James: I like the image of, I've seen an, I can't remember who put this out there, but sitting by a window in the wintertime, like [00:25:00] sitting really close to the window and you, if you live in a cold climate, you know that that's not.

Graham: in a coal confine, you know that's

James: Comfortable

Graham: not comfortable. Yeah. And it's why. It's why. Yeah. And it's why you can have those thermostat wars too. Right? Or you can in a, in a, in a house or building with low performing windows, you can have the heat up. Higher than you normally might, and you're, someone's still uncomfortable because of you have what they call radiant asymmetry or discomfort from radiant asymmetry, which is, which is that even though the air in there is warm, you've got the reverse of a regular radiator, right?

Graham: Like a regular radiator is there to warm the room. You've got a, a glass, you know, a pane of glass that's basically sucking heat out of your body. Making you uncomfortable, even though you have warm air around you. Yeah. And when you take that away, right, when you, when you take that same situation and you have high performing glass where the interior temperature's close to the inside of the, [00:26:00] you know, the regular air temperature, the building, all of a sudden you're just comfortable without even knowing it.

Graham: You know, it's not like, oh, let me crawl over this heating duct and blow hot air over myself. You're just, you're just in a, you know. A state of thermal comfort, thermal delight.

James: Thermal

Graham: I refer to Lisa, Lisa Heschong wrote a book, or it was actually a thesis years ago, but there's a, a book called Thermal Delight in Architecture.

Graham: And I think of that as well,

James: That's

Graham: just the psychology and, and the physiology of feeling happy, feeling comfortable in your space. And it's also not necessarily about. Like a rigorously uniform environment, but just coming up with something comfortable. So we'll also, right, in our high performance homes, we'll also have, in bathrooms, we often have a heated floor or a [00:27:00] towel warmer or whatever, right?

Graham: It's not like the building necessarily needs it, but when you go in there in bare feet, it's, it's a nice little bit of

James: Bit of cozy.

Graham: Exactly.

James: Hmm.

Graham: And that that's the message I guess, you know, we, we were kind of talking about is this is just better. Like, it's not, it's not a, I think the term, you know, the term hair shirt,

James: Yes,

Graham: it was a, it was a thing in the Middle Ages, right?

Graham: In middle ages, like religious would wear. Shirts made of goat hair and stuff, like really uncomfortable, put this on to sort of punish themselves for their sins, right? And this is not a hair shirt proposition,

James: absolutely.

Graham: this is not a pun. This is not a, a question of like, I, you know, I'm concerned about global warming, or I feel guilty about it, or whatever.

Graham: So I'm gonna have a, a home where I suffer for that. This [00:28:00] is all around better.

James: Mm-hmm. Yes. Like a diet where you eat high-end cheese all the time or something.

Graham: Or whatever, right? Yes. Just yes. Like something where you're really happy, like you're, you're, you're joyous and, or, or as I, we've got it on our, you know, on our website. Live your values while living Well, you know,

James: Hmm. Right.

Graham: it's the idea of like, not, not. And what, how do you do that? Well, you just build a design and build a better house.

Graham: It's really that simple. I think you said that early on, like this is just better, but how does one, how does one communicate that to, you know, on mass? And that's the, that's the challenge, you know, and again, I think part of it probably is like making things look compelling and cool. Right.

James: Yeah, I feel like [00:29:00] it'd have to be a combination of people going in places and also having a visual identity so that then when they walked down the street, they could say, oh, that's one of those places. Oh, that's one of those. And then,

Graham: That's one of those, exactly. Yeah.

James: I see, I see

Graham: And you know, and yeah,

James: you can make

Graham: some of it, you know, some of it is, is go ahead.

James: I was just thinking you could make like a, a Passivhaus castle or something. Or you could make a Passivhaus, Tudor mansion or whatever. You could, you know, match architectural styles probably and bring it up to Passivhaus standards. But then that defeats the purpose. 'cause then people would think that the look of the thing is the thing that they want, not the feel of the thing.

James: Mm.

Graham: Yeah. Or, or you know, or it's all of those things, right? But it's also like. And I said I was gonna talk about cars sometimes, like, like, at least where I am. Like E EVs or electric vehicles. Electric cars have reached a tipping point [00:30:00] where people want them.

James: Right.

Graham: Right. It's not, it, it didn't, it used to be, you know, an uphill battle to get people to want them.

Graham: Now they want them, and, you know, they don't necessarily, I mean, they, they know some of the benefits, but. It's more than that, right? It's, it's, it's just kind of cool for want of a better term, right? And so like, and you know, and that's one again, you know, I'm a student of marketing, but one of the things I learned or read about marketing is that people fundamentally make decisions based on emotion and then justify them with logic, right?

Graham: So like, one of the problems I think. That there's been from the get go with Passivhaus or high performance is, and it's ironic because I think you and I are both passionate about the logic of it, [00:31:00] right? Like, like it's more than just. So we have passion around that logic of it, but that's our passion and we assume that everyone else just would obviously adopt that.

Graham: But yeah, what, what we need to do and what we've been relying on for, you know, I think to, uh, to the detriment of it is just making this completely rational, logical argument with, with no. No attempt to really understand why people other than those like us who who are, who find that emotionally appealing might be drawn to it. And it's like I did a presentation a while back where I was talking about EVs and I said, okay, let's say you wanna, I was you talking about marketing Passivhaus, but using this analogy of EVs. And I said, okay, well let's say you. Market this ev [00:32:00] and I showed a picture of an Audi e-tron, you know, which is a, a very luxurious, beautiful

James: Mm-hmm.

Graham: you know?

Graham: And I'm, again, regardless of how people feel about it, you know, that's what its vis image is. And you know, I said, here's what you, you know, you show this car and you show how it looks, and you show how it feels to drive it, and you hint at how you'll feel if you're driving it. You know? And then I found. I said, this is not how you market this car.

Graham: And I found a slide or an image that I'd taken from Audi's website in Germany, and it was the chassis of the e-tron, right? Like just the chassis with the, you know, all of the running gear and it had all of these arrows. It was like a technical diagram, and it had all of these arrows pointing to all these various components.

Graham: And all of the components had these long German names. Which I couldn't make hide or hide nor hair of. And it's like [00:33:00] this, you know, this is kind of what we've been trying to do to sell this to people. I think. And some people like us are, you know, really into that. But not everybody, you know. And the other, the other challenge as an architect, you know, as someone who's concerned with design, because I love beautiful design, you know, folks, folks who.

Graham: For whom the battery and the motors are the main draw. Don't necessarily care what the thing looks like.

James: Agreed. Yeah.

Graham: So you know, if you wanna get to the point where you're doing something beautiful that's also high performing, you need to, you need to get in touch with folks. Passion around design and experience, not just their passion around. An RV or an ERV, you know, with air circulation and like [00:34:00] ra, no, you know, no radiant asymmetry and whatever, 15 kilowatt hours per square meter per year of heating demand, maximum. You know, I mean, all these things that we in the, in the, in our little tribe know about. But, but again, like that stuff is gonna stay. I think that's gonna stay a pretty cult-like thing. I don't think that that part of it is not gonna like captivate the world.

James: Completely agree. Yeah, I, I've, I've thought for a while that there could be some good work in the marketing of Passivhaus to spouses, because I, I think that's probably a lot of like, well, I mean, anecdotally in, you know, my wife is not, I mean, she's not, not into it, but I. Trying to explain like why it's exciting or whatever it, it, I imagine there's a lot of that that goes on. One, you know, generally speaking, not [00:35:00] always, but generally speaking, two people buy a house and one of them's super into this part of it. And, but if you don't satisfy the other part, then it's not, it's not gonna land, it's not gonna happen. So,

Graham: Absolutely. Yeah.

James: Hmm.

Graham: Yeah.

James: Well, this has been great. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this with me. Before we go, where can people find out more about you online?

Graham: So our website is essential habitat dot com.

James: Nice. Perfect. Um, thanks for joining me today. I.

Graham: Thank you for having me.

James: You've been listening to Marketing Passivhaus. I'm James Turner and I hope you'll join me again next time.