07 - Bronwyn Barry - Passive House BB
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James: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Marketing Passive House, the podcast where we hear from architects, designers, builders, suppliers, owners, and other experts in the passive house and high performance building space. We'll be talking about what's working and what's needed when it comes to marketing buildings that meet or aspire to the passive house standard.

James: I'm your host, James Turner, and today I'm joined by Bronwyn Barry, architect and principal at Passive House BB. Bronwyn, welcome to the show.

Bronwyn: Hi, James. Nice to be here.

James: Thanks. So before we get into it, and for people who are just meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you started on your passive house journey? I.

Bronwyn: Sure. So I am, as you mentioned, an architect. I'm based in San Francisco. I am originally from South [00:01:00] Africa, but I've been in the US effectively, effectively my whole career. came here to study architecture, in the early nineties. And have stayed and sort of built a career here. And essentially I've been, you know, exploring the, the outer edges of what is a green building. For the, for the duration of my, my architecture career. It's sort of what's driven my my investigation and my sort of my career and my passion has been. sort of searching for, for what that actually is so that you know, the work that I, I do kind of delivers some sort of answer and outcome. That's a very, very rough, broad strokes description. I dunno if you wanted any, any [00:02:00] more, more details in the in inside the line of those big outlines.

James: I'm curious to know when passive house came on onto your radar in that regard.

Bronwyn: Sure. So it was sometime in the early two thousands actually, it was like, and actually not late two thousands, about 2007, 2008. I was part of a, a loosely sort of self organizing group called the Green Remodelers Guild, here in the San Francisco Bay area. We, we were organizing a whole bunch of. Presentations, seminars, just exploring, you know, this whole idea what is a green building, because at that time,

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: was just denim insulation and you know, adding direct supply of ventilation and nothing really. [00:03:00] Nothing really substantive or systemized. But you know, we were endeavoring endeavoring in that, in that collective to really. Explore what was, what is a green building and how do we responsibly do buildings? And as we were

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: primarily remodels responsibly and, and sustainably. And a gentleman by the name of Nabi Tahan showed up. Gave a presentation on this retrofit he was doing of a, a bungalow that he owned in Berkeley. And this was

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: I heard about passive house. 'cause he was using this passive house framework to drive and guide the retrofit that he was doing where the build a friend of his, [00:04:00] And just, you know, all the light bulbs went off for me because this was the first time that

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: heard of anything that had pretty clear targets that were defined. Then it had a tool that you could use to actually see. you met the targets and at the time there really wasn't much training. Involved. You know, literally the next day I called Nabi and I said, look, you know, this is great. How do I get more of this? This is exactly what I've been looking for. And he said, oh, you could go to this training in Urbana that this woman was putting on but you'd have to go back to Urbana, you know, for, for a week every three months. And I was like, oh, geez, Urbana. And then the other option was to go to [00:05:00] the International Passive House Conference in Germany, and it was in Nuremberg that year and I was like, that one sounds like a much better bet.

Bronwyn: And it actually turned out to be cheaper and less flying than going to Urbana three times than the year to do some training. That was, sounded a little chaotic. So that's my passive house origin story. You know, about it at the Screen and Writer's guild, and, you know, once I got to Nuremberg and my head exploded because it was just so much to absorb. And the conference there, the trade show was just mind blowing 'cause there was products there that I had literally never seen and even heard of. And, you know, the, the technology was so far advanced and the discussions were fascinating. I, I remember distinctly [00:06:00] one presentation where there was a massive sort of like. Audience argument between the presenter and some of the participants. It was the sort of audience. Yeah. Because they were so irate about whether there should be PV put on a passive house. was the whole argument. This hot, this very heated debate was all about like.

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: Should we be supporting generation because we really are trying to promote efficiency first. And I remember being completely blown away by that because first of all I was kind of like, wow. You know, it was like, okay, like being. What, what was termed at the, at that event, anarchic building, you know, effectively what we, we now reference as a net zero building or a, a standalone like autonomous [00:07:00] off-grid project.

Bronwyn: You know, that was what was being presented. But you know, there was so much sort of pushback on that and I just thought, man, that was pretty mind blowing. You know, a really fascinating sort of look back at how, how the world has changed since 2000. That was like 2008, I believe, early 2008. Yeah, big, big shift. And the debates are different. You know, but we're still. As I say, exploring all the boundaries of, of what is really sustainable and how do we do this better?

James: Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking when you said that you've been. Working on building what a green building is. And I was imagining that the the shade and tone of that green has changed significantly over that period of time. Like, you know what, how you talk about it, but also just what, [00:08:00] what you can do, what, what people will accept that sort of thing.

Bronwyn: Well, and also just sort of like the, the parameters of the debate know, and what we really think of as not only as possible, but you know, that that discussion, that that argument was really. A philosophical one about what should we be doing and how should we be really delivering buildings responsibly?

Bronwyn: And you know, the perspective was quite different to what I had even considered, but the discussion was really important, you know, and I think that's still ongoing and I still, you know, now. The hot topic du jour is always is currently all about the embodied, or as Lloyd likes to call it, [00:09:00] more accurately the upfront carbon emissions. And now the discussion is all

James: Yes.

Bronwyn: know, these materials and the materiality. And again, know, I think it kind of, the thread is still valid about, well. You know, efficiency, the baseline efficiency of the building is still not included in that discussion or it's dismissed out outright. know, I think I, I see, I hear a lot of dismissal about like, hmm, the baseline. Efficiency, or again, as Lloyd likes to mention, the sufficiency. which I think is

James: Sufficiency. Mm-hmm.

Bronwyn: yeah, much more nuanced way of really defining efficiency. And I think that's again, another [00:10:00] evolution of this discussion. And, know, going right back to, you know, that early, you know, that first sort of introduction to this real. Philosophical discussion is, do we just put PV on it and call it a day? And now the discussion is, do we just build it out of, you know, biomaterials and call it a day? You know, but no discussion about

James: Right.

Bronwyn: the scale of things and the, the efficiency of do we actually build. And you know, coming back to full circle, it's just keeps coming. You know, it just keeps coming down to that effective, essential core, and that is why I am still a massive passive house advocate. [00:11:00] It's, it's really, you know, it is the, it's the kernel of what we need to do for buildings is to really drive, drive the investigation into what's really most effective and what's necessary and then what's most efficient. That, you know, has kept me. Completely mesmerized and intrigued the work that I've been doing for, you know, ever since then.

Bronwyn: So it was really a seminal moment and pivotal in my career and has defined, you know, the full extent of what I've, what I've done so far. Since then.

James: Nice. And yeah, it's a, for people who like puzzles, it's a great puzzle and I like that it's [00:12:00] not tied to really almost any equipment or materials at all. Like you can just, if you can meet these standards however you see fit to meet them, then. You can call it a passive house. And that's that. I, I really like that it's a, an idea more than a blueprint.

James: When you, we talked about, about sufficiency there for a minute. I was brought to mind of your much promoted phrase that buildings should be boxy, but beautiful. That strikes me as very much in line with sufficiency. Do you want to talk about that at all? Has that, has that resonated? Outside of the.

James: The core sort of people who are working on this puzzle, as, you know, obsessed or, I don't know, they're not, not obsessed, but internal enthusiasts versus, you know, breaking through to the, the outer ring of people at all.

Bronwyn: Well, I think, you know, it was a sort of a more of a provocation. And, but it has, you

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: literative you know, [00:13:00] resonance and makes it sound, it's catchy, but beautiful

James: Yep.

Bronwyn: and memorable, which is all the good advertising soundbite things that you want, right. For, for marketing. But as you say, it's really, you know, it's, it's sort of like what's the essence of things and how do you sort of simplify things to make them sufficient and still functional. But still beautiful. I mean, because we're all in this profession. I,

James: Yes.

Bronwyn: you know, I'm, an architect as much as a passive house advocate. And an architect first. Yet they, know, the idea of building really sufficient and efficient buildings. And, you know, making them beautiful is always underlying all of [00:14:00] those, they're, none of those things are, are really negotiable for me and, you know, endeavor to do that in all my projects.

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: and you know, and I think the opportunity, you know, people, architects sometimes are here. Balk at this idea that they'll be restricted in their creative, you know, output. And, you know, they have this sort of

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: aversion to the idea of being, you know, bound by some targets and parameters. And I kind of feel like, know, that's kind of dumb because you. You're given more creative license if you work within specific parameters.

Bronwyn: And know, passive house does that for you. And you know, in, in many ways it drives you to be more creative. 'cause you need to be, you know, you need to solve a, as you say, I [00:15:00] like the idea, it's a puzzle solving that's. You know, all design is really puzzle solving. Um, and passive house just gives you a

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: extra, extra advanced puzzles to solve in a, you know, to put, to put together.

Bronwyn: So make sure you are, the whole thing works to, you know, in additional ways, you know, for comfort. Comfort and, you know, energy and acoustics and. Health all the things that we know passive health delivers. So, you know, I'm like, why wouldn't you also wanna solve for those? I you know, it just seems like a no brainer to me.

James: Yeah.

James: Yeah. And put to mind of the idea that. You know, if you're writing a sonnet, you, you're, you're forced to write what a sonnet is. You can't just, but you can use all the words. They're all available. You can configure them [00:16:00] however you like, the theme of the thing that, but by forcing you into a form, it's, that's recognizable.

James: You're, you get to show what your sonnet is, or,

Bronwyn: Isn't

James: yeah.

Bronwyn: that a much better challenge? You know, doesn't that actually push your creativity much further? And doesn't that actually give you sort of more satisfaction when you achieve the outcome? You know, when you, you get the result? I mean, and that for me too

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: of like the passive house, you know? Framework has really given. Me some immense satisfaction in my professional work because, you know, at first I was kind of like, you know, I think most people and anybody with a, you know, functioning brain and you know, curiosity will always come with some, some degree of skepticism because [00:17:00] you have to, I mean, an inquiring mind will always question, right?

Bronwyn: And you should. That's healthy.

James: Yep.

Bronwyn: and, you know, I started out with that same skepticism going like you know, how's this really gonna work here? And like, you know, you just don't know until you've tested it. Right. And so the, you know, the first couple of projects,

James: Right.

Bronwyn: that I did. was always with that little bit of like, oh shit, well we hope this is really gonna have the same results as what it's supposed to do. And I was fortunate to be, you know, you, you, you better be asking those questions. And as I was really fortunate to

James: Yes.

Bronwyn: partner up with a builder you know, it was a sort of a long I. My sort of entry into passive house actively, you know, producing projects sort of was a bit delayed. Um, [00:18:00] you know, 2008 was like 2007.

Bronwyn: 2008 was 2008 was the start of the big market crash, the, real estate that hit the globe.

James: Right.

Bronwyn: literally, I. I had like two years worth of signed contractual work at the beginning of that year, and within three months, all of those contracts had been canceled. I, I went from,

James: Wow.

Bronwyn: being a, you know, a active, you know, very, having a very busy practice to being completely unemployed. Um. I ended up working for a, you know, fortunately I, through word of mouth, there was a construction company around here in the Bay Area that had, was run by a couple of German guys. And they got the license to distribute these, this window. And they heard that I knew. I, [00:19:00] you know, knew a fair bit about Windows.

Bronwyn: I'm kind of star myself as sort of a window geek, a side gig. They contacted me and said, Hey, would you wanna be a rep for us, you know, to sell these windows? And I said, okay, I will do this

James: Nice.

Bronwyn: if you also go. There was a window that I had seen at the conference in Nuremberg that just blew my mind because it was such an innovative profile, design I had not seen.

Bronwyn: And it was an ENERsign window made by a, a gentleman by the name of Günter Paze n. And I said, go and get the distribution rights for that window too, and then I'll sell windows. So I spent a couple of years being a window rep around the US, visiting architecture offices and teaching them about, I had to, actually, it was, these were both triple [00:20:00] pane windows that I was representing. One, a lovely wood, wood window made in a, in the Sorpetal valley called, Sorpetal windows. And the other one was the ENERsign window made by Günter Pazen's company

James: Mm-hmm.

Bronwyn: good parts company. And I, I would tell people, would literally have to teach them about passive house first. Because otherwise they

James: Right.

Bronwyn: idea why they would wanna install a triple pane window. So I tell people it

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: like selling, was like selling spaceships in a world that was just used to very nice go-karts. Literally

James: I could definitely see that.

Bronwyn: people like,

James: I.

Bronwyn: okay, this is this completely sophisticated engineered, you know, like [00:21:00] supermodel and they were just used to like these very simple, like functional, you know, very. Technically not too complicated windows. So it was,

James: Mm-hmm.

Bronwyn: few years. And then in 2011, I, the company, the construction company unfortunately did not survive. So I had the choice to carry on selling windows under you know, like a separate company entity. I chose to go back into, you know, the world had kind of moved on and design has came, came back. So I chose to go back into architecture and I partnered with a contractor who was very, I had actually sold him windows for his first home that he had built here in the Bay Area. And I said, okay, let you and I, let's team [00:22:00] up as a design build. Entity and we'll only do passive house.

James: Right.

Bronwyn: So and we,

James: Nice.

Bronwyn: know, we, for nine years we worked together. We built a bunch of projects. And fortunately Alan Gilland is the gentleman's name that I worked with and his company was One Sky Homes. He and I were able to get

James: Mm-hmm.

Bronwyn: those early projects monitored so that we could literally test to see if these buildings performed the same way as they were supposed to be performing, and we could calibrate the performance against the energy model, and it was a fantastic validation. Of passive house. and it really kind of [00:23:00] solidified my confidence in being able to deliver buildings in California designed as passive house and know that the outcomes were exactly or very, like quite un candidly close to what we predicted in the model. So that kind of also

James: Yeah. That's amazing. Did, did you have to, I.

Bronwyn: sorry, go ahead. I have to what?

James: Did, did you have to write that into the, the contract with the, the client that you could go back into their house and

Bronwyn: Could monitor the

James: around basically?

Bronwyn: Actually we, it was a really

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: tool. We you know, and actually at the time the monitoring software was really the little, the we, Alan actually had purchased a a set of these little like. [00:24:00] Clips that you would put over the electric circuit and it would. Read the amount of energy going through that particular circuit. And then there was a software company

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: actually had an online dashboard and we could track it and we could get the client access to the tracking, and we had access to the tracking as well. And then we also had. We had Build America Monitor a bunch of our pro, a couple of our projects, these reports on them. So we had outside entities also monitor the, the projects. the clients, know, we work, live and work in the Bay Area and. Pretty much all my clients work in tech, so it's not hard to sell a

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: and a tracking and a data collection, to any of our clients. They love it. And in fact, it's sort of became a really [00:25:00] fantastic sort of insurance policy where, you know, Alan would say, Hey, you know, we

James: Right.

Bronwyn: years post occupancy monitoring. Which also ensures that we know the house is operating as designed and so everybody wins. You know, he got to like make sure that all the equipment actually was

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: and the building was working. The clients got to see like, okay, what energy, you know, they were actually using. And as say most of them were just data geeks. So, yeah,

James: Yes.

Bronwyn: I mean, and it, it really was, you know, better than certification because it, it, you know, two years, it's like,

James: Right.

Bronwyn: to see exactly how this is working and we know, you know, there's our prediction from the model. So it's just really fantastically validating on all [00:26:00] fronts. Interestingly,

James: Yeah. And would you be able to go and fix it?

Bronwyn: oh, you know, there were a couple of weird things that we discovered equipment failure. You know, there were two real anomalies. One was one of the, the outdoor units for the, the heat pump kept cycling into. Resistance mode rather than into, you know, heat pump mode. And we could see that from the monitoring. and it ended up being an equipment failure an equipment failure issue. And so we managed to get the supplier to come out and fix it. And we had the data and we could see like, oh, this wasn't working properly. And then the other interesting anomaly you know, we were among the first to do all electric homes. You know, we'd been doing all electric homes. I think the, [00:27:00] the first one we did was in 2011 with an induction cooktop. And the induction stove has this weird little

James: Hmm. Nice.

Bronwyn: Functioning that actually makes it look like it's continuously drawing power. And so we were like,

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: this is something wrong with it, you know?

Bronwyn: And ended up actually, it was just sort of that magnetic signal. Giving the, the sensor the idea that it was using energy, but it actually, when we just turned off everything and watched the, the meter, nothing was actually being used. So we, you know, we, we, we figured

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: of these little quirky things along the way, from this, this monitoring experiment. And yeah, as I say, we were doing all electric homes way before like it became like the big trend. And you know, I had to navigate a few of those [00:28:00] kind of quirky little But, you know, it gave me a real appreciation for post occupancy monitoring because you

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: to see, you know, if equipment really was functioning as it was claiming as that, you know, as a manufacturer claims, so super information.

James: Yeah, that's interesting. I, in thinking about marketing passive house the obvious person to market to is the clients. But I think that a large part of the marketing of passive house is to, like you said, start to architects. Giving them like, here's the reason why you would want to do this. And then I also thought.

James: You might want to touch on the, the regulatory side. 'cause you're also marketing it as an idea to people trying to change building codes and that's a different kind of marketing, but it's still, you know, spreading an idea and, and [00:29:00] getting people on board. So I was curious, you've probably marketed to all three, who's, who's harder to market to and, and what's worked.

Bronwyn: You know, I, I, I'm kind of like endlessly sort of like perplexed by how hard it is to market passive house to architects and to policy makers. Particularly in a warm climate. And I was gonna go back to my monitoring data and I've seen that, know, we, it's, it's sort of like. People's assumptions about what is passive house really get in the way of actually having them be interested and curious. And I, I've been,

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: I say, flummoxed by that for a while because, you know, the data that we got captured from the monitoring was like cooling worked. [00:30:00] Equally, if not better, than the heating load reduction. And, you know,

James: Right.

Bronwyn: the presumption, the automatic assumption is, oh, passive house. It's for European climates and they have already called. Climates and we are in a warm climate, so we don't need that here. It doesn't apply. And I'm just like, actually, like all the data showed me, it works great here. And in fact, it really works effectively here. And we do need it because anybody who's lived in San Francisco or the Bay Area will tell you our buildings are some of the most uncomfortable buildings. Because they haven't been well insulated.

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: not airs sealed. So they're, and they, I almost every project I come across, I find some form of mold. [00:31:00] So they're terribly unhealthy,

James: Wow.

Bronwyn: not well ventilated, definitely not. And this is a term that I have discovered and really kind of. coined that.

Bronwyn: The ideas, they're definitely not smoke tight and

James: Yes.

Bronwyn: you know, working with regulatory, you know, my, the other thing I haven't really touched on, but you probably are aware, have been, I've worked really hard a volunteer to, help found passive house. California was one of the, the early, board members really kind of that organization for 10 years, then also helped found the passive house network, which is our national US passivhaus

James: Yes.

Bronwyn: training and advocacy entity. [00:32:00] And what we really worked just ridiculously hard at was to set up train a really robust training program. other architects. 'cause

James: Mm-hmm.

Bronwyn: other architects always coming to me and saying, Hey Bronwyn, like we've, we've heard about this passive house thing and will you be our consultant and make this design, do this design and make it a passive house? I was like, and Uhuh, that's not how it works.

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: And so I've all, I've always been allergic to being a passive house consultant for other architects because, you know, fundamentally it just doesn't work that way.

Bronwyn: You have to bake the passive house design into the front end design and not into the back end, you know,

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: you've already done all the architecture. So. [00:33:00] I've just said to architects, look here, I work my ass off to make sure that there's this training program for you. Go and do it. That's your, they're gonna be your own consultant. And then here, you know, we've made it so much easier to do and to get that accreditation and to learn those things. And literally 20 years of my career probably as much time in my paying job as my unpaying job. As my non-paid job to do that, to make that pathway available. And then that work, really that the regulatory, as you say, the policy folks also needed to really understand more about passive house. And that sort of. Once I, once I rolled off, you know, handed off as the board chair at Passive House Network, I've been chairing the, the policy committee [00:34:00] and developing, again, tools and resources people to be able to go and advocate for passive house. Because we saw, know, this country is so huge and it's a federal government. States actually control their own building regulations. So we effectively had to go, you know, build something that could advocate in 50 separate countries. I mean, you know,

James: Right.

Bronwyn: that's how the

James: Yep. Yep.

Bronwyn: It's not one real fed. The feds do not control building regulations. states do, then within each

James: Right.

Bronwyn: some cities control their own. it was an enormous, it's an enormously like complicated advocacy [00:35:00] challenge. And so we'd been really quietly building

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: a, a roadmap and then tons of resources that. It's starting to really be effectively implemented now where our local regional

James: Great.

Bronwyn: advocates, they get to go and advocate at their state and city governments. And it's really that sort of snowballs is, is finally starting to really gain momentum. And we are, you know, we're getting a lot of traction. It's still, it's still slow going and oh my God, the pushback and the reluctance and the sort of the, you know, the, it's an education problem again, teaching regulatory [00:36:00] frameworks why and what this does for them. The

James: Mm.

Bronwyn: buzzwords, and as I mentioned the biggest win that I've found recently is the word smoke tight, because in California, I mean it's pretty obvious.

Bronwyn: We've really suffered from literally like seven, eight years now. Regular wild wildfires of, of massive, horrible with horrible consequences and outcomes. You know, la the LA fires are just our recent one, but before that we had the tubs fire. We've had the Paradise Fire, then we've had the blow down from the.

James: Right.

Bronwyn: The fires up in [00:37:00] Oregon and in, Vancouver, the British Columbia region. Know, and now globally, everybody's really of to unfortunately have the visceral like experience of dealing with wildfire smoke in there. In their air,

James: Mm-hmm.

Bronwyn: they live and you know, once you feel that, you don't forget it. So Marketing Passivhaus

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: as a solution to that has been super helpful to sort of figure out for California.

James: Right. I suppose that's, that's often the way, isn't it? I mean, people just, you, until you experience a thing, it's, it's really hard. Make it click.

Bronwyn: Yeah.

Bronwyn: Mm-hmm.

James: it's sad when it has to come to such, you know, [00:38:00] it's sad that we can't learn lessons before experiencing them, but it seems as a, as a species, we,

Bronwyn: We

James: don't,

Bronwyn: and this has been sort of

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: eye-opening thing for me to discover in my advocacy at the, the regulatory level, regulatory frameworks are reactionary and not proactive. So they literally have to

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: they only are. responsive to like crises. So we see over and over ell you know, all

James: Yes.

Bronwyn: horrible building problems that then, oh, then the regulatory, you know, the regulat regulators suddenly get like, oh my God, we've gotta like improve you know, the fire codes and, you know, all these wildfires we. You know, California's sort of suddenly going like, oh yeah, okay, now [00:39:00] we need to actually deal with indoor air quality. But none of it's proactive

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: and none of it, as you say, it's, it's shocking that, you know, our whole regulat regulatory framework doesn't have any proactive mechanisms structures, so. You know, for somebody who is quite proactive in my, in my, you know, looking to just how to design buildings and always searching for like, okay, that's where we need to go. You know, proactive about, you know, going all electric buildings way before anybody else was really like, even thinking about that, at, you know, adding. PV before it became a regulatory thing. and even

James: Right.

Bronwyn: the low upfront carbon materials that's been sort of [00:40:00] on the radar in my own practice for, for a long time already. Now I'm trying to drag the regulatory frame frameworks kind of up to, to speed and, you know. With very mixed results.

Bronwyn: Some of them are kicking, still kicking and screaming, reluctantly, dragging heels which is also

James: Right.

Bronwyn: Endlessly frustrating and kind of annoying. But you know, it's work that has to be done right.

James: Yeah. Yeah. Very true. It sounds, it, it's interesting too, no matter what. You know, venue, you're in, whatever avenue, industry, et cetera. We, we, it's the same sort of set of human problems that hold us back and then prop propel us forward and then hold us back. Yeah this has been absolutely [00:41:00] great. But

Bronwyn: Oh,

James: go ahead,

Bronwyn: I was

James: please.

Bronwyn: could talk for hours about this because, you know, it's just an endless pile of, you know juicy material to unpack and, you know, rants to be had about, you know, what you should, what we should and shouldn't be doing. And I think it's. But it's important to come back to, it's, it's really nice to do these interviews because it kind of makes you reflect on where we've come from, how far

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: and you know, going back to that 2000, gosh, was it 2007, 2008 conference, but the guys sort of. Arguing about like, should we add pv? You know, it's like, okay, thank God we've, moved on from that. You know, we know we should add pv,

James: Moved on. Yeah.

Bronwyn: but we're still going back to, we still haven't really nailed [00:42:00] down. There's still no real consensus about how efficient should we really be. And you know, I ask regulator regulation

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: regulators here in California. Where, what is the end goal? Where are you steering us towards

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: Ultimately, how efficient do our buildings have to get to, you know, what's the, you know, where's the end? And I'm always sort of,

James: Right. Right.

Bronwyn: I say that provocatively because. You know, I've defined what my end goal is, and I think that's what passive house has done for me is like, it gives you an end goal.

James: Mm-hmm.

Bronwyn: there's the target, and when you get the target, you are done. Check the box, good to go. You know, the building's gonna work and it's gonna

James: Right.

Bronwyn: efficient. But our reg, [00:43:00] you know, our regulatory frameworks, they literally have no end goal. They're constantly incrementally moving, you know, insanely a glacially slow pace with no end goal in sight. And for a

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: building industry, I think that is shockingly untransparent and no wonder it's such a chaotic industry. You cannot plan for a no, an untransparent process with no end goal.

James: Absolutely.

Bronwyn: I,

James: Yep.

Bronwyn: and you know, I keep, I keep asking that question and I will keep, I will continue to ask that question of our regulat regulators. What's the [00:44:00] end goal? And until they define that clearly and communicate it in a nice transparent way to our entire industry, think we will still sort of like futs around at the perimeters and make these sort of incremental little changes that don't really get us to where we. Have to actually go. So I'm, I yeah, I want, I want a clear definition. I want it end goal. And you know, we'll keep insisting and, and someday we'll get there.

James: I, I'm sure you will, and you deserve it. We all, we all meet an end goal, so thank you for the work you do to try to push people to make one. I. [00:45:00] I likewise, I could chat about this and, and hear your perspective for ours. So, and I'm glad to hear that, that an interview like this is, is helpful in a reflective way.

James: That's wonderful. And perhaps in, in the future we can, we can talk again. And I definitely think that you are a great candidate for this podcast and have. Much to say on all aspects of, of marketing passive house, but conscious of, of the time. I think we should probably wrap it up there. That's a, a great place to, to leave off.

James: And but before we go, where can people connect with you online or find out more about your work? What's the best place to send people?

Bronwyn: Sure. So my company website is passive house bb.com. I am pretty active on LinkedIn and Blue Sky and both under their handle passive house, bb so that's, that's kind of the extent of my, [00:46:00] my online activity and social media. It's a rabbit hole that you could spend ages on, so I try to keep it, keep it, constrained.

James: Nice. Me too. Same channels for me. Thank you so much for joining me today, Wyn.

Bronwyn: Oh, it was a real pleasure James. Thanks for your own work and helping to promote you know, better buildings through passive house. It's just, you know, I always like to tell people it's got three things that I love. It's got targets. got a tool that you can use and it's got training, and those are the three essentials every sort of framework

James: Hmm.

Bronwyn: And if it doesn't have those three things, then you know, I'm not interested. It just doesn't, it won't really, won't really be effective.

James: [00:47:00] I love it. Casually throwing in a third. Excellent. Marketing soundbite at the end of a podcast. Very nice.

Bronwyn: and

James: The three T's

James: beautiful.

Bronwyn: alliterations, the three Ts. You remember 'em?

James: Yep. You've been listening to Marketing Passive House. I'm James Turner, and I hope you'll join me again next time.

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